Slow clap, Lost writers, slow clap.
Just when you thought we'd seen every variation of Flash (back, forward, on-Island, time travel, and Desmond-future-predicting), they bust out the never before seen, super tricky dual-flashback-flashforward for the same episode... and it worked beautifully.
Here we saw flashbacks of a young Jin, two months after he married Sun - rushing to deliver a stuffed panda to some Chinese Official on a mission from Sun's Father (Paik Industries) contrasted against the flashforwards of a post-Island Sun, giving birth to Ji Yeon, calling out for her husband Jin... who is actually dead.
So, this raises a few very big questions:
- How did Jin die? Smart money is on him dying in helping the Oceanic Six get off the Island, or saving Sun in some way. This also confirms his place as one of the two bodies that Kate mentioned they brought back with them. Did you notice the date of his death on the tombstone? September 22, 2004 - the date of the Oceanic Flight 815 crash - meaning their story is that he died in the crash.
- Who are the Oceanic Six? Does this really mean they are Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, and Aaron? Weird.
- Who is the last body? If Jin is one of the two bodies, who is the other? Claire would seem like an easy choice - except it seems like her non-pregnant body would blow the cover on Aaron's existence if they're playing him off as Kate's legit child, wouldn't it? If so, that basically leaves Michael, Locke, Sawyer, or some minor character. Smart money from that bunch is on Sawyer, with the logic being that Sun brings Jin along (because she needs to bury him) and Kate brings Sawyer along (because she might love him).
- Why did they show Michael mid-way through this episode? Did you see him shortly after Regina jumped in the water? Totally blew the surprise... which actually wasn't much of a surprise to ANYONE at all!
- Why did Regina kill herself? I was puzzled by the upside-book-reading scene initially, but it makes sense now - she was slowly going crazy, and didn't even realize her book was upside-down. It's funny (in a really morbid sort of way) that Regina and Minkowski are the two Freightors we heard the most via radio through the first five episodes of the season, yet their combined face time is like 10 minutes of the show.
- Why did Michael sabatoge the Freighter? Why keep it so close to the Island? Is this his way of helping rescue our Survivors? Or Ben's plan to slowly pick off the Freightors one by one as they go insane and kill themselve?
- Where is Walt? Did Frank take him on his "errand" to get him off the boat? Or did he do this long ago?
- Do the Freightors really believe Michael's name is Kevin Johnson? If Michael really ran into the Freighter on his way off the Island, wouldn't they know him by name, since they know all the rest of our Survivors quite well? Why would they keep him aboard? Initially, I thought it was because Michael could provide them information on the Island - but if he's lying about who he is and working as a janitor, this doesn't seem to be the case.
- Should we believe anything the Captain says? The note says we shouldn't (just like Juliet's note to Jack about Ben last season) but everything he said matched up nicely with my predictions and analysis from thus far this season. I'm torn!
- Shouldn't it be pretty obvious to the Freightors who the traitor is? They pick up a random guy (I guess this is an assumption on my part) and all the sudden their boat is getting trashed? Are you telling me there aren't any racists on the boat who wouldn't immediately blame Michael... er "Kevin"... anyways?
- Why is Jack calmly eating cereal instead of drilling Charlotte and Faraday for information? Has he given up this easily and is now satisfied with their lack of answers? Where is the torturous Sayid when you need him?
Like I said, questions!
Okay - time to chatter. You know the drill.
85 comments:
I couldn't agree more about Jack..or anyone for that matter...not hounding the freighters for answers! I would be by their side 24/7 asking anything and everything!
I missed when Kate said they brought 2 bodies back? I thought Jack just said 8 survived initially?
Yeah, we all knew it was Michael, but it was still really exciting to me. I don't really think they freighters would have picked up Michael and Walt. Perhaps the bearing took them to an island where Ben arranged their pick up or something like that. I have no idea. Can't wait for the analysis!
I missed seeing that glimpse of Michael on the ship - now I have something to look for when I rewatch!
Watching the 8 pm "enhanced" ep of last week, I was once again struck by how freakin' dumb Jack is. After Juliet and Charlotte come out of the Tempest and meet up with Kate and Jack, Juliet gives an explanation saying that Char and Dan are the good guys, etc. And Jack just says "I'll take their word for it." What?!? Has he learned *nothing* about how duplicitous people can be?? Even if I'm inclined to believe those 2 may be okay, Jack should have at least an ounce or two of self-preserving smarts! Sayid should have hit him over the head a long time ago.
I am crazy or did Sun's nurse look a lot like Jin's mother? Also I wouldn't be so quick to say that Jin is dead. There was just something about Hurley's comments that just gave me the unmistakable feeling that Jin may be alive and well still on the island...
They announced someone dies next week, perhaps that's Jin. All I know is it better not be Desmond.
If Widmore recovered the plane's black box, what is the freighter captain doing with it?
What if the last Oceanic Six person is Michael? I can't believe they'd hold onto Jin's body from the crash until the rescue and bring it home. Wouldn't it be, umm, yucky? Either he died exiting the island or he is still alive and the grave is just for the extended family's closure. Jack couldn't be bothered to visit Sun? Jerk.
I agree with anon... I don't necessarily think Jin is deceased/dead. He might be 'dead' to the rest of the world & that tombstone is just symbolic of a very much alive Jin that still trapped on the island.
I've given up on Jack. I did not understand why he was just so complacent last week nor this week... it's just dumb.
Maybe Michael isn't the sabateour (sp?)?? I still have a feeling that he's not necessarily 'Ben's man' on the boat.
Good points.
I don't think Jin is necessarily dead either.
There is def a possibility that Michael is the 6th person, he's already half way there.
There has got to be more to Regina killing herself than what meets the eye, everyone was just too calm. There is something more going on there.
OMG I cried! When Jin went back to their tent with dinner and forgave Sun and said "you will never lose me" I just knew he was dead but thought he'd get hit by a car on his way to the hospital. Then the "2 months of marriage" thing nearly knocked me to the floor. Watching him on island is going to be so sad knowing his fate. Ugh.
My guess on your questions:
1. I'm still too sad to think about it, though I'm sure he'll be a hero.
2. I hope that's not the 6, I really wasn't counting on Aaron being one of them because he didn't have a ticket but it could work.
3. Not my Sawyer!!!
4. I didn't see that but I'll look when I watch it again!
5. Regina definitely lost it. It is odd that her & Minkowski didn't get much face time, I thought they'd be more important to the show. Creepy how cold & "whatever" the captain was about it.
6. I think he's definitely working for Ben, made some other deal with him at some point. I'm still confused by it - not the who but the how.
7. I'm so confused by the how of the whole situation - hoping for some answers next week.
8. Still confused & wanting answers.
9. First off, the captain didn't say much we didn't know already - just confirmed I guess. Plus he was asking the same questions I'm wondering myself. Though it sounds like he may have said more to Sayid & Des "off camera". Need more info!
10. I'd think it would be obvious if he was picked up in the middle of the ocean, but since it's not so obvious I don't think that's where they met Michael.
11. Jack just eating cereal bugged me. What happened to the fearless leader??? Why isn't he more concerned about Sun? And he should be grilling Charlotte and Dan for more info. Gah! I think the conflicts of his heart are getting to his head.
Looks like next week's epi is going to be another good one - maybe we'll get some more information out of Michael/Kevin with Sayid's grilling we saw a sneak of. I love this show!
A question I have...the captain again refers to ALL, however many people, were found dead with the wreckage of the staged plane. So everyone in the outside world believes everyone is dead. ...so at what point does it make sense that there are suddenly 6 survivors of the crash, when up till then everyone has thought ALL the bodies were found with the wreckage? Just curious. If that makes any sense to anyone.
damn..totally missed the Micheal shot half way through...loved how smooth sayid played off the meeting of "Kevin Johnson" who by the way was Phoenix Sun basketball great, though im sure thats not the reason the writers picked that name. Sayid had the look of ill play along wit u now then ill beat ur ass when we r all alone...sayid has unfinished business wit him...anyway i initiall thought jin is some sort of assassin for paik (who maybe is on the same page as widmore and may get a visit 4rm future sayid) and was forced 2 work again for Paik when he got back 2 from the island but the 2 months thing made it clear...anyway next week looks great...wat kind of flashback is it going to be brian? it can't be an on island flashback right cause then you would have 2 show a much older walt? Flash-forward? flash back pre-crash?
I know Jin lovers are finding this hard to believe, but guys, he's dead.
Why else would Hurley ask Sun to "go see him?"
They were alone at that moment and had no reason to fake it to anybody. Also notice Sun's sadness to it all, it was real.
The reason his tombstone had the date of the plane crash is because that's part of the secret they're all keeping to keep the island hidden.
Sun kept saying "I miss you so much" didn't she? Couldn't this imply that Jin is still on the island for some reason? Maybe part of the deal was that only Sun could leave to have the baby????
If I was Jin, then I would make the same deal to save my wife and baby. Until we see the corpse, I'm holding out judgment.
Also, remember when Mikhail was supposed to be "dead" from the sonic fence, and nobody checked his pulse? You could actually see him breathing (I remember because I noticed right away and was yelling 'Check his pulse!!' at my TV), so if you go back and look carefully, it makes sense that he was still alive.
I think that in the same way, we will later on see Jin alive, then go back to this episode and say "We never actually saw him dead!"
Also, the way that Sun wanted to keep wearing her wedding ring and then kept asking for Jin and expecting him to show up. I don't think it's delusion or denial that Jin is dead. She is actually hoping to see him again.
There were all these little clues that Jin had a flashback while Sun had a flashforward.
1. Jin's hair and makeup made him look younger.
2. His angry, forceful demeanor as Paik lackey.
3. His cell phone - giveaway!
4. He was throwing around money, which could have come from Oceanic, but seemed more like Paik money.
Jin's flashback was like a reverse from Jack's flashforward in TTLG, wasn't it? The cell phone was sort of a giveaway in both, though, leaving little surprise by the end.
BIG question for me know, who was in the coffin???
IT doesnt seeem like jacks reation to that persons death, would be his reaction to any of those 6 people going.
Maybe it really was the the coffin of mild manered janitor kevin johnson! The only person who knew how to sail to and from the island.
I dunno why but i feel a michael flashbackforward coming soon!
Good episode! Great flash back/forward combo. I was thrown off, not understanding why Jin was so fixated with the Panda and why he yelled threats. But it makes sense given that it was a flashback to Jin prior to his later more formative experiences.
Oh, I saw no such glimpse of Michael. Are you sure you don't mistook one of the two crewmen working on the ropes for Michael Brian?
i am feeling a little deceived by this week's episode, having the dual flashback/flashforward was nice, but did they have to trick us by having sun call out jin's name (and presumably pass it off as a pregnant woman saying crazy things when giving birth), this is the second time they had a character utter questionably true information to trick viewers as to the time of the scene (jack referencing his father in the first flashforward), i feel like it could have been done better
With Jack....the question he should be asking is to Mile..."if saving us is not your primary objective, than what is"? How could he NOT get to the bottom of that question?????
As for the episode, Jin's flashback was gratuitious and did not advance the story line at all. Worse yet, I felt it was manipulative and gimmicky of the writters to mislead the viewers again, for no particular purpose. If the point was to establsh Jin as being dead or remain sequestered on the Island, there may have been other, less manipulative ways to write it.
The overall vibe on the ship was very creepy! The captn's and crews reaction to Regina jumping off the ship was just one example. The blood spatter on the wall appeared like someones brains got blown out! Very creepy indeed.
I seriously doubt Michael will be the last member of the Oceanic 6. From the flashforwards we've seen that each of the 6 are celebrities. How could Michael return without Walt? Michael killed two people to save Walt, so he wouldn't just return alone, and there would be no reason to keep Walt a secret, would it?
The producers of the show keep saying that those two bodies kate mentioned are not part of the story line. It's just something made up by the oceanic 6.
Is it possible that Jin is still on the island? Knowing that Sun had to get off the island or die, he maybe forced to stay behind.
One thing I'm CERTAIN of, he's not one of the two bodies kate mentioned.
Notice she's in Korea.. didn't they have a discussion about that a while back? Didn't sun want to go to the US and jin to korea? another possibility is that Jin may have been wiped out once he got back to korea.. but if it did say september 22nd(which I didn't see).. I would put my vote to him still being on the island.
It would sure give Sun a reason to return.. what other reason could she have? Sometime this season she's going to be as adimant as Jack last season in needing to get back.
The captain suggested that the plane and bodies were placed there by Ben. And that Mr. Widmore had to spend a lot of money to get that black bock as evidence(against ben I suppose).
But 'Kevin' said not to trust the captain, and I think this is what he's talking about as Kevin/Michael is working for Ben and they're going to suggest the plane was planted by Widmore.
Ben is a lier, but I don't see him as someone that would kill 300 people to plant them on the plane like that. Or were they dead already? Widmore? I'm not sure how far he would go, but we know he's not a good man either. The plot thickens!
Sun insisted on waiting for Jin in the delivery room. She also wouldn't let them take off the ring. Calling the name could be a delusion, but refusing to remove the ring is a strong indication that Jin is still alive on the island.
The line goes "to death do us part". Someone may be so close that they insist on wearing it as part of the greiving process, but to fight not to have it removed at all? Sounds like a symbolic link to him on the island.
But the big question, is Jin is not one of the oceanic 6, who's #6?
Concerning the two who died in the oceanic 6 'story'.
See this interview:
http://www.ugo.com/tv/lost/?cur=darlton
Brian, you'll see that if Jin is one who dies, the other is the Marshall, but I don't think this is the case.. but personally don't think so.
However, as you read below, the 2 people who die "don't matter" as they're port of the 'story' created by the oceanic 6.
UGO: So the story for the Oceanic 6 is that they came from a group of 8 survivors. Are we going to find out the identity of the other 2 supposedly not so lucky survivors?
DAMON: Well, that is part of the fiction as concocted by the Oceanic 6. Many, many things that Jack said on the stand at Kate's trial were untrue, although he was under oath, like the Marshall dying in the crash for example. We want to be very clear on the idea that there were only ever the Oceanic 6. The identity of those other two people are not as important as people are making them out to be, it just makes it feel like a more believable fiction.
Sun was the one who wanted to go back to Korea and Jin wanted to go to the U.S.
Sadly, as much as I like Jin, I think he's dead. Big question: why was Hurley the only one to show up? Why didn't anyone else arrive?
Anyone watch the promos? When do we start bets on who's going to die?
Brian, I share your wonder that the freighter would just pick up Michael and make him the trusted janitor, never suspecting that he was doing the sabotage. That leaves two possibilities for me: (1) due to funky time, Michael came off the island significantly earlier, was brought back to the USA by Ben's people, and managed to join the freighter expedition from the beginning, or (2) the writers will still surprise us when we find out that Michael is not Ben's man but is only allowed out of his cage when mopping is needed. I'[m hoping for number 2!
Does anyone else feel that the pace of Lost has drastically changed? I guess that is obvious, but here's what I mean: in the first few seasons we didn't get many answers, but lots of things happened. Every episode had the Others doing something odd, or a hatch discovered, or whatever. I feel like now we are getting various answers each episode, but often vary little actually happens. I'm okay with that, but wouldn't mind some more events!
Serious question here, Am I the only one who half-expected the baby to be black?
haha.
i'm like, bothered you think sawyer would be dead. everything about his character in correalation to notorious "survivors" (for lack of a better word) through literary history indicates he is alive and WELL!!! and he is not someone who would be "brought along" because his lady loves him. he'd go on his own, if he wanted.
Okay, that was a confusing episode. Are we certain that Jin's was a flash back? Could it be that Sun has been lied to and believes he's dead. Meanwhile, he's started a new life and has remarried. Why would he still work for Paik though? I guess the flashforward/flashback makes more sense, but I agree it was a cheap manipulation. Another question, why were there three dates on the tombstone?
3/20/1980
11/27/1974
9/22/2004
I would assume his birth was the 1974 date and that they are claiming his death was 9/22/2004, but what is the 1980 date? Anyone?
I think the whole "trick" was annoying. They could have done the same thing without showing Jin in the past. I found it hard to believe that Sun would call out for him if he were dead, even saying that she wanted to wait for him to arrive. That just doesn't seem realistic to me - and I've gone through labor 4 times so I know whereof I speak! It was just a hokey trick. Boo!!
The rest of the episode, though, I really enjoyed. I like that we don't know if we can trust the captain or not. I loved the look on Desmond's face when he found out who owns the boat. And I agree with whoever said that just because Michael is there doesn't mean he's Ben's man. Widmore certainly isn't beyond kidnapping Walt in order to get Michael to help find the island and gain the survivors' trust. Too bad Michael already abused their trust in the past.
Jana, I like the way you think! I think I recall that the preview for next week is fair game to discuss here, but if not, you can you ahead and skip the rest of what I am going to say ....
The preview showed Ben saying something along the lines of "What wouldn't a father do for his son?," which seemed to confirm that Michael was the mole. But what if in context Ben is really explaining the reason that Michael is assisting Widmore? Interesting possibility ...
I really liked the structure of this episode. Like Brian said, they're finding new ways to explore the flash-forward/back storytelling, and I thought the whole effect was very moving. And I definitely think Jin is dead. At the end, Sun herself says to his grave "They told me I called out for you." The woman was grieving and giving birth to the daughter that I think it's most likely he died trying to save. A pretty emotional moment... and I have no doubt she'd want to keep the ring on as a symbol so that "Jin" could be "present" as part of the birth. That's her only tangible tie to him now, of course she'd still want to wear it at this incredibly important moment.
Oh, and the more that we see of the freighter crew and their slow boil, the more and more I'm convinced they're experiencing the same "sickness" of Danielle's crew.
Ok, long time reader first time commenter!
Did anyone else feel the writing in this episode was sub-par? I mean, the whole scene of Sun and Jin talking about baby names....
"How about we get off the island, then we can talk about names. Deal?"
"Deal!"
(reaches out for handshake)
What is that?? Also, the scenes between Jin and Jack and Jin and Bernard seemed cheesey and very un-Lost like.
What do you think?
2 things. Hugo's comment when he was with Sun and asked if anyone else is coming. She said "no" and he said"good"?
And, when the Captain was explaining the wreckage and the amount of manpower/money it would take to create it, and saying that is why they want Ben. Is he saying that Ben created the fake crash site and not Widmore?
Having the only black guy on the ship be a janitor that's barked orders at constantly? Wow.. I'm white and it's the first thing I thought.. other than "isn't that Michaels voice"
(1) Don't feel betrayed people! Being fooled by clever, compelling, skillful technique is something to be admired and is one reason why we love Lost! And there can be no doubt the splicing of the flashforward/flashback was all of the above. I loved it.
(2) Why is Jack being such a tool.
(3) Someone asked about the third date on the tombstone, with 1980... I didn't see it, but I'll throw out that it's Sun's birthdate, with a blank for her to-be-determined death date.
hey Jeremiah....I didn't find the writting lacking, as you point out but did find the overall story-telling of Jin and Sun, with flashback/flashforward, was a cheap manipulation entirely uncessary to move the story ahead. Other than that, I found the dialogue itself to be up to LOST's standards and the scene with Jin and Sun, after he came back to her following learning of her affair, was touching (well directed)...well acted....and again, well written! Even the scene with Bernard was OK and necessary as a plot device to move Jin back towards Sun. One final thought....Liz Mithell's small part was very well played I thought.
What made me realize that Jin's flashback and Sun's flashforward were occurring in different times was that she was clearly in Korea, but the panda was the clue that he was in China, not Korea. Then the cell phone was the giveaway on the timing.
We had a big debate here at my house after this episode. I was in tears about Jin being dead, but my husband is convinced that he's *not* actually dead. He thinks Jin is back on the island, and Sun and Hurley are simply keeping up the myth that the Oceanic 6 have to perpetuate. They're lying about his date of death (it wasn't 9/22/04), so why wouldn't they lie about him being dead at all? At the gravesite, she was saying how much she misses him, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's dead. I'm not sure I'm convinced either way.
What if the *captain* is Ben's man on the boat? If the captain is working for Ben, maybe he's the one sabotaging his own ship and has plans aimed at protecting the island rather than exposing it? It would fit with Michael's warning not to trust the captain. Just thinking out loud here.
The 1980 on the headstone is Sun's birthdate, for the expectation that she will eventually be buried beside Jin. (*If* in fact he's even there!)
My thought was that Jin somehow left Sun and returned to work for her father, but made it look like he died. Maybe he's still working for Paik undercovcer but deceived Sun into thinking that he was killed.
I dunno, random thoughts...
Just found this while I was surfing around the web looking for reactions to 'Ji Yeon'. I live in Korea. I didn't realize I was looking at a flashback because the money Jin used was a stack of the new Korean 10,000-won bills, which have just been introduced. That's why the end came as an ugly shock: the most compelling piece of evidence was actually an anachronism. I thought this episode was gratuitously cruel (or at least clumsy) as a result.
Considering Jin had been intending to run from Sun's father, who would not hesitate to murder him, it would make sense to fake his death. Remember the airport scene in the first season? There's more to this than meets the eye.
I also think that Sun and Jin are the heart of the show. Penny and Desmond are too, to a lesser degree, but they also play another function in the overall mythology. It would be a mistake for the writers to kill Jin off wantonly. His character has undergone one of the more interesting evolutions in the story (and I'm biased: I think he's hot) but also he and Sun give the story a certain grounding. I hope he makes it somehow.
articulate_ink.livejournal.com
That couldn't have been a flash back of Jin because the guy at the store noticed him as a member of the Oceanic Six...I haven't read any of these comments so I'm sure that others have already mentioned this.
just a thought about regina could she have possibly been talking with Sayid and Desmond then heard someone coming so hurriedly picked up her book and didnt realize it was upside down... then maybe she also sent the note saying not to trust the capitain i mean she was the one sitting out there so wouldnt she have stopped someone else for sending it... then she killed herself knowing the evil that was going to happen that she couldnt prevent
also i said the same thing last night about jin being on the island ....maybe sun decides she wants to go back convinces hurley hurley goes crazy goes to the mental institution tells jack they need to go back jack says no then later goes crazy and tries to convince kate to go back
Orrrr....maybe not now that I reviewed it again. I don't know, I just don't think it was a flash back for some reason. Something about it struck me- like he's under cover in China or something
Yeah, you beat me to it, because I was going to say I definitely don't remember anyone mentioning Jin was part of the O6. Anyway to me it was a clear (and nifty) flashback-flashforward splice.
replying to Randy:
I too thought Hurley's suggestion it was 'good' that no one else was coming was odd... I obviously think there is something more to that statement.
I think the captain was most definitely suggesting that Ben (& his benefactors?) were behind the fake crash site... that would fit his m.o. of bringing finality to the missing plane & thus no searches for survivors that would inadvertantly turn up this mysterious, unknown island. Thus also the reason the captain suggested it took significant resources to come up with that black box... Widmore has those resources & needed to find the black box to investigate if the plane crash was faked or not.
I am so convinced that Michael is NOT Ben's man on the boat and he did not sabotage the communications. I think he's just there. I'm defintitely considering the notion that the captain, himself, is Ben's man.
They recognized Sun as an Oceanic 6 member, not Jin. I'm still confused.
If the captain was Ben's man on the boat, why would Lockeneed to sit down when Ben told him? Does Lock know the captain? WOuldn't it be more of a shock to tell him that it was Michael under a different name?
I’m not really sure if I’m happy with the way Lost is going. Granted, there’s so many intricate details that not all details can be covered in each episode, but it seems to have taken a HUGE turn from when we started the series. For instance, if Libby and Ana Lucia hadn’t been arrested for DUI, then most likely they’d still be on the island. If real-life Eko (whatever his name is) didn’t want off the show, he’d still be there. But because all these people were written out, I can’t help but wonder what the purpose of them being there in the first place was. Did the Lost writers REALLY want to take this direction way back when? Why was Smokey SO important in season one, yet we still don’t know what it is, and what the point of it was? Why was it so important to Eko and Locke, yet not to others? Why haven’t we seen ANYTHING about the Others lately? I don’t know...doesn’t it seem so absolutely totally different than when we first started?
Of course....
...you could say that that’s the point. That what we thought it to be wasn’t really what it was. But it seems to me that they’ve taken a turn and just ran with a totally different story than what it perhaps started out to be.
Could someone reassure me that this was the way the show was supposed to go? I want to know that ALL the questions we have will be answered. :)
kim - "My thought was that Jin somehow left Sun and returned to work for her father, but made it look like he died."
That's how I felt too. The episode left me with the feeling that for some reason, Jin was alive and leading a new life while Sun believed him to be dead. It wasn't until I read the blogs and comments this morning that I even conceived his part was a flash back. I'm really confused and not sure what to think. Have the producers said for sure that it was a flash back? If it was, then I'm really disappointed in the episode. If it wasn't, then I'm confused and intrigued.
Ok, one more thing based on what VICTORC said (sorry if it's been discussed, I haven't read every comment)....he said Jin is for sure dead, especially based on the way Sun reacted at the grave site.
Obviously that scene took place within about seven months (or less) of them getting off the island. And Hurley hadn't gone crazy yet, which means Jack is still with it. Could there not be a possibility that the Oceanic 6 are ok for a while, not realizing that there's people actually left behind (maybe just think they're dead)....and then they all find out that they're still alive but stuck on the island, which causes Hurley to go crazy, as well as eventually Jack?
Okay perhaps I missed something, but the first few O6 people we were introduced to were: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and (debatable) Aaron. Then the teaser for the coming week's episode was "find out who the last member of O6 is" which we learn is Sun. So given they said this was the last, why are we wondering if Aaron is included? Or am I missing something? Great blog Brian... love reading the instant reactions and the in depth analysis!
I posted the comment above... and am a goof, because I just went back and read Brian's comments on the "last of the O6 in the coming episode"... I guess you could take it both ways! It doesn't say last member... so hard to know if more than one!
i think the 300+ bodies found in the bottom of the ocean are the bodies of the purge ben did
i think the 300+ bodies found in the bottom of the ocean are the bodies of the purge ben did
Thedon - The purge bodies were/are in a ditch on the island, where Ben shot Locke. They could be from another purge, but again, where do you come up with 300+ dead bodies?
In terms of Michael, my theory is that he signed up to join the freighters AFTER getting back to the "real world" and dropping off Walt. This could also explain why he randomly decided to work for Ben; maybe Ben contacted him after he got back and convinced him to help. It also explains where Walt is (home), and where he got a haircut.
The only problem with this idea is time frame, which I'm not entirely sure would make sense (he'd need enough time to return to civilization, get convinced by Ben to return, get hired by the freightors, and come back). But it makes more sense than "the freightors who won't even pick up their own suicidal crew members pick up and trust a random guy in a crappy boat."
I'm upset by the neatly wrapped up episodes with so few open ended questions. I do not like where this season is going. Not one bit.
Where is the symbolism, mystery and need for a PhD to understand the plot line?? We have shallow characters and predictable outcomes.
So disapointed...
I'm with the others who said that Jin probably isn't dead. You know what they say about Lost, don't ever believe someone is dead until you see it happen on camera.
I think that for some reason, there wasn't room for Jin, and he was left behind. They never actually SAY anywhere in the episode (that I recall) that Jin had died. In fact, Hurley doesn't even say "grave". My guess? Jin isn't dead, but according to the story that they've been forced to repeat, they are the only survivors. Since everyone knows that Jin was on that plane with her, then everyone "knows" that he's dead. Hence, the grave.
Of course, if Jin dies next week, I'll accept it. But I won't until I actually see his death on screen, because these writers are some sneaky bastards.
As much as I'd love to believe that Jin is alive, I'm pretty sure that that was a flashback, and that what we saw in the graveyard is true.
My main reason for this is that (besides the ancient mobile phone he's using) the shopkeeper Jin bought the panda from said that it was the Year of the Dragon when he was trying to persuade Jin to buy another toy. The year of the dragon that the shopkeeper mentions could only between the 5th February 2000 and 23th January 2001, making it prior to the plane crash, and, as Jin says, just two months after his wedding to Sun.
OK, that was a very good point in referring to the year of the dragon. I guess it was a flashback!
I think it will be pretty hard for the writers to completely kill off every other character besides the O6. I think we can assume there are people still on the island, but how? Is it the locke group who stays and the jack group who leaves? hurley said that he was sorry he went with locke, which means, at some point, he had to return to jack, right? With all the intermingling of characters between groups, this may work itself out. On a lighter note, is Miles still in the cabin with a grenade in his mouth? That must suck!
Kim-I know the bodies r in the ditch but if in fact Ben planted the bodies like the captain was hinting, which is very debateable cause well micheal said don't trust the captain, then where would the bodies come 4rm...im just thinkin that would be a quick way 2 come up on some bodies unless he had his connects in the outside world go grave digging...im like you kim i just don't know...anyway so what r the predictions on WHO DIES NEXT WEEK??? imma say its between Jin, Claire, and sorry 2 say Desmond...
I had the same problems as Kim and Drudo... I'm going to have say thumbs down on the flashback/flash forward combo. It's a bad idea, way too confusing. I totally thought Jin faked his death and was leading a another life... I see now the convincing evidence for the flashback but wouldn't have ever thought of it had I not read the blog. I'm a pretty huge Lost fan and can't imagine how confusing this might have been to average Lost viewers.
Thankfully I doubt we'll have such silly storytelling again.
I'd have enjoyed the episode a lot more if it were so darn needlessly convoluted.
Stef: Last week when they came out of the tempest I thought Jack said "I'll take her word for it" Not their word for it...meaning he believes Juliet...which of course made her feel all the more tenderness for him...
At first I didn't like the flashback either, but obviously they didn't just put it in there to be fun or mess with our heads- as the Lost writers always do, that flash back will tie in and be important to something, and it will have to do with getting off the island. I do not think that Jin is dead, but I'm not sure if Sun knows or not. Perhaps that is part of why Jack and Hurley have such guilt about some of the island stuff.
Haven't read all the comments (there's way too many for my short attention span! o_O) but somebody was criticizing the purpose of the Jin flashback. It actually wasn't quite as gratuitous or pointless as you might think. Remember, when he's fishing in the boat with Bernard, the man who really makes him think about fixing his Karma by forgiving Sun, they discuss how life sometimes comes "full-circle". In Jin's flashback, we see him as the kind, devoted man Sun fell in love with. That parallels what he said to her in their tent, of how he realized her affair was to hurt the angry man he became working for her father. The true Jin is gentle and loving, and the themes of the flashbackforwards continue the "full-circle" idea by focusing on these traits. It seems even in death, he was true to the man he was born to be.
It's actually all quite brilliant.
Could Ben's man on the boat be Charlie??
So many comments to read.. here's my theory before I rewatch the episode..
I think one of the purposes of using the flashback was to reintroduce Paik Automotive into the picture. I have been thinking that in addition to Widmore, Sun's father is also involved. I remember reading that Paik Automotive and Widmore Corp have business ties?? Not 100% sure if it's true. Why else would the Lost writers give away who is behind the freighters so soon?
Did anyone else notice how Sun only asked to call Jin and not her father? Maybe there was some sort of falling out with him after her return from the island - maybe because he was behind this operation. In some deal to get 6 people back from the island, Jin had to stay behind - thus causing a fallout between Sun and her father (if he had any involvement..)
Quoting Lostpedia regarding Sun's father:
"an apparent representative of Paik Heavy Industries, mentioning that "Mr. Paik" is building a custom ship (the Helgus Antonius) for the Hanso Foundation.
Wondering if the ship is the Kahana...?
First, there's an easy way for Michael to not be suspected as the sabatour... notice how he sounds very slow of thought and lagging speech? That'd be convenient cover, and would tend to make anyone discount him as a possible problem.
As for answers, Jack thinks he has his answer--they're looking for Ben, and working against him.
As for why no one else showed up, Kate's probably in custody dealing with the trial, plus she has Aaron; Jack is likely back at work, unable to take time off (and possibly not too eager to get on a transpacific flight anytime soon); and Sayid is busy killing people for Ben. Hurley's the only one who doesn't really have something to tie him down.
hi Caralyn...from everything I have read and heard, the exec-producers and JJ created LOST with a very broad arc that was extremely clear to them. In other words, they KNOW the beginning, middle and end. However, especially given how ambitious the concept for the show is, the writters and producers deal with twists and turns as it may relate to actors in the real world and have to write accordingly. So...with various characters like Ekko...or even Ben himself....some of the concepts have admittidly developed as the show morphed into what it now is. Keep in mind however that the C & L have done what NO other producers have EVER done in TV history....making a firm committment to an end date to their viewers! This cements the notion that they are not just leading us on with no end game conceived.
In the end, LOST is a magnificient drama/love story....Rose & Bernard....Kate and Sawyer/Jack.....Charlie and Claire.....Desmond and Penny...Jack and Juliette. LOST is a fantastic mystery. LOST is an epic sci-fi show. LOST has comedy, suspense and puts reality TV like Survivor on steroids.
Oh...and Sun and Jin too.
In Ji Yeon, Daniel Da Kim and Yungi Kim's performances were touching and extremely well done. Yungi Kim, as Sun, plays the part with such vulnerability. Daniel Da Kim exhibits subtle range in his performances so far as Jin's demeanor before and after Island life and how the Island touched his soul. Again, exceptional performances by both!
Thanks, anon! :)
The Oceanic 6 are celebrities, everyone seems to know who they are, and everyone refers to them as the Oceanic 6. So, Jin can not be one of the Oceanic 6. If he were, he would have arrived with the rest of the group and would be well known (and so would his death, if he died). So, if the tombstone says he died on the day of the plane crash, he must have either died before the rescue (and can not be part of Oceanic 6), or he is still on the island. I think the last of the Oceanic 6 is Michael. As for Walt - either for some reason Michael gets rescued without him, or Walt is somewhere in the US in hiding (from Ben?). Just my two cents.
WALT, WAAALLLLTT!!
WHERE'S MY SON? THEY TOOK MY SON!
WALT!
Sorry, could not resist the flashback to that. :-)
I say Walt is on the island living with the Others. That would explain why he showed up in that scene when Locke was in the ditch. So, with that in mind, I figure Ben must have recaptured Walt (perhaps with The Captain's assistance), making The Captain Ben's man on the boat and Michael motivated to help the survivors. I also agree, Michael is #6 and will have much motivation to return to the island with Jack, Sun, and Hurley in order to finally rescue Walt and get him off the island.
Prachi, good call on the connection between Paik & Widmore; I've been mulling over that one for a while.
As for being able to tell the difference between flashbacks & flash-forwards. Flashbacks have a sound (like "shooom" or something) at the beginning of the flashback scene. (This was also stated on one the enhanced episodes pop-ups recently).
As for Jack not pushing the whole what's going on here with the boat people. Well let's say you were rescued out on the middle of the ocean by say a fishing boat for example. They wouldn't just stop what they are doing to take you back to dry land; they have a job to do, money to make. And unless you are dying you can pretty much guarantee your priorities would be second to theirs. Whether it's captain hyliner paying the bills or widmore, the best any survivor (in real life or in Lost)could hope for is to be saved and then wait for the ship to return to a port. So him (jack)trusting the people that can realistically get him off the island. The same people who just nutralized a toxic chemical weapon. I don't know, to me it seems like a good enough reason for Jack to accept their word for now.
This also leads to why I don't have an issue with Michael working on the boat. He was rescued (in the eyes of the frieghter people) and to carry his weight he was put to work. After all crew are dying so I'm sure they are short handed.
As for why the boat was sabotaged in the first place. Well of course Ben doesn't want the boat to leave for obvious reasons. Disable the engines and the Sickness (as per Roussou)should be enough to finish off the boat people. Destroy the communications and hopefully they can't give away their position.
Does anyone read this far down?
Happy Losting everyone!
the captain said that the crash was staged with all of the dead passengers and it is known by public as we seen in Faraday's flashback.So what about the oceanic six,didn't people get suspicious when 6 survivors came out of a plane crash which all the passengers were said to be died ??
Some people have said that Jin is in China in the flashback. Clearly he isn't.
Everyone speaks Korean (shop keeper, nurse, etc), the signs are in Korean and most importantly, why would you have a Chinese ambassador to China? Presumably, the ambassador is the Chinese ambassador to Korea.
OK, Ben would throw bodies in the ditch... maybe he chose the ones from the ditch for the plane? I don't know. I just don't see him randomly selecting 300 people from the outside world to kill... and where did they come from and why aren't they missed? Sure he gased people but he had a thing against Dharma and the island told him to. Wait.. OK.. he would do it.
anonymous said...
"As for the episode, Jin's flashback was gratuitious and did not advance the story line at all. Worse yet, I felt it was manipulative and gimmicky of the writters to mislead the viewers again, for no particular purpose. "
I couldn't disagree more. The purpose was to tell a story in a different way. This is what makes Lost so fun. The tricky flash/back/forward with us not knowing for sure till the end. . . Loved it! The writers have been taking tips from the great early 20th century writer O. Henry.
I cried for Sun, and Jin. And Hurley is such a sweetie traveling to Korea to see the baby, And he cleans up very well and looked so nice in his suit.
I also loved the whole creepy ship-of-the-dead feeling to the freightor. I love how they just threw in the suicide and the blood stain on the wall, just to give us the creeps, without explaining a lot.
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