As in "fate". That was definitely the central theme of the episode - that no matter how many chances you might get to re-live a moment in time, if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen.
I definitely need some time to digest the episode. But here are the discussion points for the morning after:
- Who or what was the older lady who wouldn't sell him the ring?
- Was the Island giving Desmond a chance to find his redemption, but he screwed it up (again), thus he returned to the Island instead of dying in the Hatch Implosion?
- Why did Desmond break things off with Penny when he seemed so hell bent on changing fate just moments earlier?
- Is Charlie doomed? Why can't it be Claire?!
- Does Desmond continue to "flash" both forward and backward in time - or was it once back, and now all forward?
Homework: research "The Time Traveler's Wife" by Audrey Niffenegger (at the suggestion of tmcnew) and re-watch Back to the Future. Full analysis once the homework is done!
93 comments:
Well....guess I'm not wearing my red shoes anymore.
One more for your list of questions:
Are Desmond's visions of the future a result of him being able to see the future, or has he actually returned in time more then the incident that we saw?
I think that tonight's flashback was all in Desmond's head. I don't think it was any kind of time travel. It wasn't a chance for him to redo things. If it was, wouldn't Charlie suddenly remember Desmond? He never met Charlie before because on that day when the interview really happened, Desmond probably paid Charlie no attention...He's just another dude on the street. But then, in his dream state immediately after turning the key, he recognizes the guy as Charlie. I have NO explanation still for why he can see these things beforehand on the island, but I do NOT think that there was any time travel involved in tonight's episode. That woman that he had the conversation with about fate? That was the other side of his brain explaining things to him.
The ending really blew me away!! I thought the whole time that Claire was the one that was doomed. It threw me when he said...It was you that died...I jumped in so you wouldn't.....You're gonna die, Charlie..
I hope somebody catches the moment right before Penelope says Where are you Desmond? I've listened several times and swear I hear Charlie saying: "Get him off me man!"
man i can see why they said that this episode would hook you or lose you, i predict ( :P ) that alot of people wont like this episode
Another great movie on time travel is Primer if you can find it. It deals with causality and the same type of question: could you really change the outcome if you could do it all over again.
I don't think Desmond can see the future. He went back in time and now was reliving what he had already done. The flashes are just him remebering what has already happened. Pickle...you the man!
the woman that sold him the ring is an other; in the preview for next week she someone who looks a lot like her but with a different haircut appears to be talking to jack on the island
"if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen" - Brian
Well more to the point in physics there is a strong notion that it is ALL THAT can happen. Due to a multitude of belief systems out there some of you may not appreciate this notion or like this next analogy even less. But I certainly hope I don't basterdize it too much too insult all the physisists out there who really know what they are talking about.
Now imagine the universe is like a big loaf of bread. It is for all intensive purposes, everything. On one end you have the past and on the other you the future. And what if we can make a slice to see from one end to the other? Well, this of course should start to provoke some thought that if indeed the universe is static, then what does that do for free will? And the notion that we have choice? Remember, the loaf is static, all that happens is all that can. There is not to much you can do once the loaf is made, you can't change it. Life, is what it is, brothos' & sistos'. Like I said I may have ruined the actual physics analogy but I think I got the basic premise.
Now this brings me to the Swan hatch and it's Grand (albeit, still hypothetical) purpose. What if the purpose of the Swan hatch was to generate a bubble or a pocket of "Lost Time" in which the area of the island is in a phase shift from the rest of time. Effectively removing that area of spacetime from the static (hard coded) nature of the universe. Wow that was overly wordy. But stay with me hopefully I am making as much sense as it seems in my head. And hey its been awhile since I've had a crazy Lost theory of my own. And like any Lost theory it has holes.
Now I am loosly following this up with things like Juliettes remark about there still being "Free will on the island". And Ben's (HGI at the time) comment about how "God can't see us here"(something to that effect). Well duh! when you are not entirely plugged in with the rest of the universe perhaps there is a way to change things. To alter fates path.
So maybe with this (the Swan Hatch generator), there actually was a way for the initial purpose of the Hanso Foundation/Dharma initiative to succeed in creating a way to directly affect causality, and free ourselves from the "tyranny of those numbers" (the variables in the equation). And ultimately to change the morbid destiny of humanity via altering aspects of the human genome and implimaneting those on a global scale. "The bodies must be examined to insure specific genetic markers are being made" -Mittlework. After all if enough of us can survive...
But more importantly now that the bubble is popped and the island has phased in with the rest of the universe, what now?
Alright I'll take my bruises now.
Well Brian, you were spot-on with the "Final Destination" motif, although with the wrong person :)
Now this begs the question I thought of last week... what if the Others didn't actually kill Juliet's ex-husband Edmund after she made the "hit by a bus" comment? Maybe it was her seeing the future as well?
Now, obviously the Others at least knew he was going to die (given his snarky "I don't even remember you saying that" comment), even if they didn't outright make it happen, but maybe the causality is backwards. If there's some freaky stuff going on with time in general, it's possible that she had some forward-looking deja-vu as well...
Oh, don't research it. Read the thing--it's a great book, and I'd hate for you to know the whole thing before you read it.
DESMOND HAS “THE SICKNESS”!
In Brian's 'Deeper Meaning Guess' for this episode, he wrote:
Normally, I would expect [Penny] to appear in standard flashbacks that the characters have about pre-Island life. But then Damon Lindelof made this comment in Entertainment Weekly about the episode:
“Flashes Before Your Eyes” will use flashbacks in a way we never have before and never will again. It'll either blow people's minds or chase them away for good.
How were Desmond’s flashbacks - in this episode - different from other flashbacks we’ve seen, including Desmond’s? Maybe these weren’t flashbacks (scenes showing actual events of the past) at all. Maybe these scenes were hallucinations that Desmond was having on the island.
What would cause Desmond’s hallucinations (other than the magnet being released and the sky turning purple)?
Perhaps Desmond has “the sickness.”
Since the hatch explosion, Desmond hasn’t injected himself with “the medicine.” He had taken “the medicine” for three years in the hatch, on the boat and even after returning to the island. But since the hatch exploded, he hasn’t had any injections. And he’s now in the “Quarantine” area.
And now he’s hallucinating. And now he’s feeling the effects of “Lost Time,” whatever that is.
"Flashes Before Your Eyes..."
There seems to be a few meanings that can be derived from the title. How about I throw in one more?...
I haven't had time to go back yet, but there were a couple of times in the show where we were bombarded with very fast changing images. One was about 10 minutes in, then there was another at about 25 minutes. Could there be something we should see within these "flashes before our eyes?"
This one definitely falls apart, but I did have a passing thought about the womand in the jewelry store being the equivilent of The Oracle from The Matrix movies.
Yeah, that's all we need... Another movie reference to confuse things. I'll shut up and go to work now.
Thanks Brian for expanding our LOST experience. Your blog helps us to stay entertained the rest of the week.
I think Joe D. may be right. That this time the flashback really was a "flash back" as in he was reliving it, but he didn't actually go back in time. So laying there in the hatch, Desmond was seeing all of the ways he could've done things differently, but fate/life/the island made him still make the same choices cuz that's what happened. So it may not have been time travel at all.... though that would be a very intriguing idea!
The older lady from his flashback is not the same woman that was shown in the preview for next week. Flashback lady was played by a great actress named Fionnula Flanagan. But perhaps conicidentally, she was one of the main characters in that Nicole Kidman scary movie "The Others" !!!
Yeah, the lady from next week's episode...the one talking to Jack about his tatoos is a different person than the older lady from Des's flashback.
Does anyone watch Prison Break? Remember earlier this season when all the cons were at that house in Utah digging up DB Cooper's millions? Remember the lady that lived there that TBag was trying to seduce? That's the same woman that we saw in the preview for next week. I don't know her real name.
What about the supposed 3 big reveals next week? Figures it would go down during a Jack centric ep.
Wow, this was pretty mind-blowing... personally I'll be holding off on trying to over-analyse this episode until we get some more info.
In the meantime though, something to chew over - it's not a new idea, but it's slowly gaining credibility in the scientific world.
Future memory - the idea that memory functions both ways (research into global disasters etc. shows evidence towards this) - this was my first thought on learning about Desmond's new mind-flayingly hard to understand abilities. Course, this was before this episode, and the seriously trippy experience with the Jeweller of Time :P
Now I for one am convinced that we'll not be getting answers to this for some time yet - looking at next season, probably, so I'm going to stop worrying about it. I'm more interested in Patchy at the moment - whether ir not he IS Jacob, why he's not with the rest of the Others, and all the other important questions and potential answers that surround him.
Oh, and by the way hobbes, cracking post - it's easily as plausible as a lot of others that I've heard, and a LOT more plausible than most. Nice one.
what about the advertisement for the movie "Room 23"? any connection?
I doubt Charlie is going to die.
I think the jeweler chick was lying about the whole 'self correcting universe' or whatever she was saying, she must have her own reasons for wanting desmond to go to the island.
Oh and the red shoes sticking out was definatly another Wizard of Oz reference.
Hobbes - your 'universe is a loaf of bread' idea is nutty (or should that be toasty? Raisiny? Fruit and Spicy?), tho it is funny! But kudos for a nice idea of an 'insulated pocket' of time. I like the it.
I haven't read all the comments, but in regards to whether or not he traveled back in time...
The story the way we know it based on previous episodes and what the creepy lady says, Desmond doesn't buy the ring and instead of meeting Penny he joins the military...so that picture of him and Penny was never taken. If he hadn't actually traveled back in time, that picture would be just in his imagination...there's no way he'd have it on the island...It's almost as if he jumps into his "flashes" even the ones that are seemingly in the future...
Anonymous said...
what about the advertisement for the movie "Room 23"? any connection?
Are you talking about the movie, "The Number 23" starring Jim Carrey?
Also, am I imagining last weeks preview showing us Kate, Sawyer, Locke, etc... getting ready to go free Jack? What happened with that?
I don't think Desmond really went back. I think that was the Island working it's magic on him. That explains why he 'popped' forward in time instantly when hit with the cricket bat. He only spend at most a couple days reliving his past. This would also explain the old lady and why Charlie didn't recognize him. This would also explain the rare bottle of 60 year old scotch.
He's seeing flashes of the future. I'm not sure how. Could the island have granted this power for a reason? If so, why is the Island trying to show him that he can't save Charlie, could this be a lie? and if it is, Why grant him this ability and have him not use it?
Maybe it's a test, maybe he needs to keep trying to save Charlie and he's testing him to see if he's a 'coward'? If he can save Charlie, is has he redeemed himself?
The only other thing I got from this episode is that Locke again calls smokey 'the island.
Desmond's time travel reminded me of three different things, on different levels:
1. "All Good Things..." from Star Trek:TNG, where Picard tavels in time by jumping into his own body at three different time periods.
2. The "Nexus" from "Star Trek: Generations" where a person loses himself in fantasy, but sees little reminders of the real world, like Desmond noticing the clock showing 1:08 and the microwave beeping like the hatch, etc.
3. "Somewhere In Time" with Christopher Reeve, where he wills his mind to actually travel back in time so that he can meet his true love.
Also "Final Destination" came to mind when they talked about the guy losing his life in different ways, like breaking his neck in the shower, etc. Is it just me, or does that make anyone else a little paranoid in the shower? ;)
yep... first thing i thought after seeing desmond wake up naked in the jungle was 'the time traveller's wife'. i really hope the writer's borrow from that book's themes instead of making up a bunch of new ones.
methinks some of you are right on with the idea he didn't actually move back, but rather it was his subconscious.
Did anyone else catch the crazy abstract art in Whitmore's office? When they first show Desmond sitting in Whitmore's office, Desmond is looking at a painting of a Polar Bear on top of a mountain range with an up-side down Buddha and ETSAMAN (NAMASTE spelled backwards)at the top of the page.
JP
It seems to me that I recall that at the end of the episode when Des turned the key and the island pulsed, that a group of researchers at an undisclosed location picked up the pulse and called Penny and said something to the affect of "We found him". Does anyone else recall that scene? I wonder if they will tie back to that scene or will they just leave us hanging again?
Has anyone else viewed the blog on the brainwashing scene from last week. Backwards it has some reference to the belief in space and time issues...the guard at door 23 was reading a Steven Hawkings book on black holes, and the day Juliet comes to the island is the day a black hole is discovered.
Also has anyone actually found out what Ben actually said to Juliet in the operating room. There must be mouth readers out there. I don't really take everything Juliet says at face value.
Thank you Anonymous. I am the man.
Hobbes,
I finally got to read your theory, and I think it makes some sense, as much as any of the other theories. It's creative, even if it's wrong, I like it.
I still think there is a time shift for the entire island after the implosion, which is why the others have lost communication to the outside world. The problem is that if the others are/were Dharma scientists, they should have known this. I'm not sure that they're the same, thinking back to Kelvin and his 'hostiles' reference.
I was also thinking: When Des turned the key, there was a flash, and he wakes up in the appartment, when he's hit on the head in the flashback/dream sequence, he then finishes the key turn and bam, he wakes up in the Jungle. So he did relive his past as it flashed before his eyes, the whole flashback took place in a fraction of a second. And I think it's the Islands influence. Remember, the Island worked hard to get Eko to keep hitting the buttons, and the old lady told Des that 'pushing that button is the only truley important thing that you'll ever do'. At the same time, Ben was encouraging Locke not to press the button. The Island and the Others seem to be at odds.
As time becomes more and more crucial, I think that this episode started to reveal the genius of this show.
For the past 3 years we've been watching thinking that the flashbacks were nothing more than a clever plot device used to tell the story.
This is the first indication that something we took for granted this entire time might play a very different role.
Just a thought:
Desmond says he knows Charlie died in a lightening strike. When he was saved (presumably by Desmond), Charlie drowned in a botched attempt to save Claire's life.
How could Desmond know about Charlie's "second death"? Has he flashed back and forward more than once?
Two quick thoughts:
JEAN, I couldn't find the moment you were talking about BUT there are two moments in Desmonds flashbacks when he says to a person, "What did you say?" First was to Penny, when she handed him coffee and she said, "Here you go love." Then the second was with the delivery man when HE said, "Hello love, got a parcel here for 815."
In the first scene, with Penny, turn the volume up and you can DEFINITELY hear some underlying audio that sounds like it could be from the beach scene with Charlie. With the delivery man, I couldn't find any hidden audio, but I think the "815" reference was a bit of a ruse. Is there something to be made of the similarity between "Here you go love" and "Hello love" ? Maybe play them backwards... hah, you got me...
Also, did Desmond predicting the rain just before it happen remind anyone of Locke's first season, "It's going to start raining in one minute" to Boon? WTF? Maybe Desmonds not the first to have flashes before his eyes. I always chocked it up to Locke being bad-assed in the first season, now I'm thinking differently.
JEAN, found the moment "Des, where are you" and heard the possible Charlie voice. It's the same clip that plays when she says "Here you go love" and he says "What did you say?"
To add to my former post, Des also says "What did you say?" When Penny says "If he's too daft to see that you're brilliant it's not the end of the world..." So maybe Here you go love/ hello love DOESN'T mean anything, ah well.
The white haired lady did say the greatest thing Desmond would ever do is push the button, also that if he didn't follow his path he would (inadvertantly) kill them all, and when he returned from his little timewarp he was finally worthy of the 60 year old scotch since it meant that he did follow his preordained path.
My vote is that he did go back in time. Not his physical self but rather his conscious-self was sent back. Since he was at the epicentre of the hatch implosion or (if I'm right) the rephasing into normal spacetime. His conscious-self caught in that pulse wave and was "thrown" (or shocked) into another point in his life. Again this is where the crazy loaf idea comes into play. That if the universe is set and can't readily be change then it is only our conscious-self that perceives the passage of time or what any of us would consider the present. In the the loaf there is only the past and future. The present is only relative to our own perception. Remember your own body is a part of the universal physical makeup too. Essentially made up of matter that is intergrated into the fabric of reality. But only fools are a slave to time. So alluding to what Senor Feesh said regarding accessing future memeory. Why shouldn't we be able to move our conscious-self through to our past selves or future selves. This is of course assuming that our id is indeed sepaerate from the physical-verse.
Now when Desi-boy was smoked in the head with a cricket bat his conscious-self lost focus and was smacked back to it's originating point; the Desmond that was lying unconscious in the middle of the jungle.
The episode reminded me of one of the great fountains of interesting ideas in contemporary philosophy: Possible Worlds
The idea is that instead of an event going one of many different possible ways, the event goes all of those ways -- one way per possible world. E.g., there's a world in which, say, I throw a ball against a wall and it bounces back to me; and there's also a world, closely related to this one, where the ball goes through a window instead. Of course, there are all kinds of very distant worlds where weird things happen, like I throw the ball and it hits a jar of jelly which drips onto a computer that sends out a signal to the White House security systems which launches a nuclear attack on Cuba. The idea behind this episode of Lost seemed to be that those very distant possible worlds don't really exist or are unreachable or something.
Physicists in the crowd might recognize this as a version of many-worlds quantum mechanics. I leave it to those smarter than me to expound on that.
hobbes - very impressive. Something tells me that you are much, much smarter than me and no matter what I post as my analysis of the episode, it's going to come across as sophomoric.
Wow.
OK, so just to clarify, no one has figured out what Ben said to Juliet last week (we could see him talking in the mirror)?? This seems like a really important litmus test on how much of a liar Juliet is, but there's nothing on any of the major blogs about what he said. Brian man, you have to know someone who can read lips!
to the possible worlds point, when Desmond runs in to see his professor, the professor is having a conversation before he is interrupted where he says something like "you can run it 10 times and get 10 different results."
Nick and Jean,
I took Des saying 'what did you say' to mean that the sound of the microwave alarm, the time on the clock, and the package delivery all reminded him of the hatch.
When he first came to, he was hoping it had all been a dream.
Hobbes! Wow! You've thought a lot about this how. It will take a while for me to think all that over. I still not think his conciousness shifted. I think the things above point to this being the Islands influence. I do like your loaf of bread theory, unless this is what the Island wants Desmond to think. Hey, you may know the future, but to keep you from using it to your advantage, I'll convince you to change it would be futile, which will render your ability useless. On the other hand, how can he see the future if it had not already happned somewhere in the fabric of time? Perhaps it is all a loaf of bread after all.
still not working - According to some people (who claim to be pretty good lipreaders), it was very hard to read and mostly gibberish. I really don't have any way to verify, but they claimed he was saying stuff like "I really have to go to the bathroom" and just making shapes with his lips that didn't form words.
I think it's something the producers threw in to send us on a wild goose chase. But if I ever find any legit information on it, I'll let you know!
Hey brian, did you notice the Buddhism stautue inside the painting/mural in the office scene?
It reminded me of all of your references to religious aspect of it.
Considering all of the Buddhist references on the show I'm surprised no on is talking about reincarnation.
thanks, brian. seems weird they would go to all the trouble... maybe it's backwards!
When Des asked the delivery guy to repeat what he said, it was "package for 815."
Package "4 8 15"
I am torn about Desmond's flashbacks. Part of me wants to think they were just in his subconcious. However if he really did go back, his conversation with the professor might explain why Penny is looking for him. If the professor told Penny all the things that Desmond told him wouldn't that explain the men looking for a signal at the end of last season. They would have know to be looking for one because of Desmond's info.
Oh stop! You are going to make me blush. Brian, me thinks you are being overly generous with your compliment. All the same, thanks. But really I'm just a bathroom scientist; I happen to read Scientific America while sitting on the toilet (seriously!). And BTW don't sell your insights short. It's your analytical abilities that have proven quite astute over the years in guiding us along. And we have all relied on your attention to detail and perseverance to keep this blog going. And truly there isn't quite the same dynamic on any other blog I've come across. I fully endorse "Lost... and Gone Forever" as the blog of choice for Lost fans (well as far as choice can exist in a static universe, lol). Even if (a huge "if" at that)I am on to something, there are too many dramatic points to be resolved in Lost. But one focus I've tried to maintain is that the producers are coming from a scientifically based point of view. Science in many ways is its own religion, requiring many leaps of faith in comprehending the nature of our existence. But what I like about science is that if a tenant proves false, science can move past its own preconceptions and no one needs to burnt at the stake for being a hieratic.
Stephanie - to reiterate to what I am picturing, the loaf is everything the universe is, from the beginning of time to its end; it is all that has been and will be. Only the past and future exist. Our perception of the present is relative to where our consciousness says it is.
So you as a person make your way through life intergrated within the loaf; the very fabric of reality, you aren't seperate from it you are a part of it. So in-effect as you are born, live and die, your journey can be traced throughout the loaf. But as we know, time is relative (it's been proven, right?). So what we perceive as the present is also relative. And this brings me back to the perception of choice or free will. So if your journey can be tracked from one point in the universe to another then in essence you (as in all of us) are slaves to time. All that we will do from a future perspective has already been done. Desmond and the old lady, I think they have merely tapped into using their physcal selves as a conduit to move there conscous-selves from one position within the loaf to another. And possibly what we are seeing with Desmond is an amalgamation of memories from his conscous-self roaming through the entirety of his own existence.
But really I'll shut up for a while now. Sorry for over-stating. Brian, back to you.
The old woman in Desmond's "flashback" said the universe will always correct itself. What if this is really the 3rd time Charlie was supposed to die. Remember in Season 1, Jack brought him back??
It might be easier to understand the bread theory with the first 6 parts of this: (click the tower of numbers of the right.)
www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php
I think turning the key allowed Des to look down his life to see the outcomes of events, or see another perspective but not actually change them. Different from the back to the future rules where you can change things. basically what he sees are just visions of possibilites no matter when they happen.
The reason I think he can't change, or that it is only a vision is a little more practical though.
Des broke up with Penny in his "flashback" rather harshley, yet she keeps looking for his as per the "scientists" that call her after the sky goes purple. Wouldn't she have maried the other man and moved on, thus not be looking.
I can't seem to word the last part quite clearly, or any of it for that matter. But I enjoy reading this page.
Oh, and a funny but sad thought I left out:
I guess we are on "red shirt" watch for Charlie.
I won't post the spoiler here, but click on the link below to see casting news that may mean something for the fate of a castaway:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20011853,00.html
I think another telling line of dialog was from the shop owner who said, "The only important thing that you will do in this life is push that button"
If it is all in his head, then he has to be applying meaning to his actions.
If it is not in his head, then the island truly has powers capable of more than we could have imagined.
I loved this episode. So intense for me. Wow... I've watched it twice since. xoxo Luv reading ya!!
To build off what someone said already...the painting in Mr Windmore's office had a statue of Buddha, a polar bear, and it said "NAMASTE" backwards at the top. ..Talk amongst yourselves
Did you notice right at the moment that Desmond hears Charlie singing on the street in London, Charlie is saying "Maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me" Pretty cool.
I was re-watching S3Ep5 and wondered if Ben's comments to Jack hint at the same sort of 'universe corrections' that are affecting Charlie?
After asking Jack if he believes in God, Ben says: "2 days after I found out I had a tumour in my spine - a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky. If that isnt God, I dont know what is".
If so is it Ben's fate to keep living in this 'thread of time'?
Can anyone think of other 'coincidences' that might hint at the same thing?
Oh, and nice catch on the Wonderwall line djdavid60.
Steph:
I read that a little while ago, but I read that the role will be secondary to her role on Lost....if that means anything.
A couple of thoughts or questions to ponder;
1. On the island Charlie didn't recognize Des. If the flashback were real, wouldn't Charlie recognize Desmond as the guy that he saw on the street in London? I think not necessarily. Charlie was down on his luck at that time and presumably a drug head with other things on his mind. Plus, it would be easier NOT to remember one guy, espectially when Desmond was dressed entirely differently....if you think about the scene, it wasn't impressionable to Charlie at all at the time.
Secondly, Desmond swam out to sea to rescue Claire. It would seem a guarantee that if he didn't, Claire would have drowned. How then can Desmond say he wasn't rescuing Claire but Charlie? Charlie was no where near that scene at the time and Clair seemed seconds away from death.
hey Joe D...yes....the movie with Jim Carey. Any connection?
The Number 23 movie with Jim Carey......Plot Outline: A man (Carrey) becomes obsessed with a book that appears to be based on his life but ends with a murder that has yet to happen in real life.
Could this be ANY reference, even indirectly, to what the writters are trying to get across in LOST?
What if it isn't Death or Fate out to get Charlie, but the island itself?
I've thought about the question of Charlie remembering Desmond from the street corner...It would seem logical that as soon as Charlie ended up stranded on the island, pushing a button to save the world that he would remember the crazy man on the street who said it would happen. But then if you consider Hobbes' theory, and that perhaps it was only Desmond's consciousness that traveled back, Charllie's memory wouldn't have been affected...I mean, if Des' consciousness traveled back and it was merely his perception of the present (in the past) and since everything still had the same outcome, he would be the only one to remember it that way. Just a thought...it makes sense in my head, but if I think about it too much my brain starts to hurt!
So are we talking the quantum leap theory here for desmond?
I really don't know what to think. I agree with the person that all the elements are there for this to be the island recreating the past from him memories, that maybe the island wants him to question his abilities, but I also like this loaf of bread theory, even thought they don't work that well together. I don't quite get the concsiousness or quantum leap deal in relation to the loaf of bread. Did hobbes suggest that he can relive parts of his life by moving his coniousness to that point in time but he only gets it in flashes? If he sees the future that way, how could he change it? If he saw charlie die by a lightning strike, and he stops it from happening, then the loaf of bread has changed, even if it corrects itself, he was never struck by lightning, so how did he see it? If this theory is true, then wouldn't see have forseen himself building the lightning rod or rescueing clair instead of seeing charlie die? This.. is the problem with time travel themes. It's difficult to do a time travel story right.
maybe it's both...maybe desmond's consciousness AND the island (in ring lady form) were blasted into the same point in time....
BRIAN, I want to pose to you my theory before you post your analysis. It's just one more point of view to think about. Here goes:
Here goes:
1. THE FLASHBACKS
Some people have said that the flashbacks from episode 3.08 were the result of Desmond traveling back in time. I think that it is MUCH simpler than that. Everything that happened was in Desmond's mind. It was a dream. When Desmond turned the failsafe key, he was knocked out....just like John Locke....and more than likely Eko. We know for fact now that both Locke and Desmond woke up in the jungle.
While Desmond was knocked out, he had himself a nice little dream. His life "flashed before his eyes". We all know that dreams can seem very, very real. Have we not seen numerous examples of dreams on this show? John Locke has had a few, Claire, Charlie, Sawyer, etc. They have all had dreams that we have seen. Desmond's dream was set several years previous. It began on the day that he went to the interview with Charles Widmore. He was freaking out during the dream because he was having severe Deja Vu. He was combining his island experiences with what was going on in his dream. He was reliving these experiences in the dream only. He was not time traveling or traveling to alternate planes of reality.
2. Desmond's "Future Flashes"
I strongly feel, now, that Smokey, and whatever is controlling Smokey, is behind Desmond's "clairvoyance". Think about it for a minute with me. What have we seen of what Smokey is capable of? (A) Smokey can read people's memories. It has clearly read the minds of Eko, Kate, and Jack. If Smokey can read thoughts, isn't it reasonable to assume that it can also implant thoughts? ( Smokey can move things....kill things. We've seen Smokey snatch up and kill the pilot. We've seen it grab Locke and almost pull him into some hole. After seeing these things, isn't it reasonable to assume that smokey could have pulled Claire out into the ocean while she was swimming. © Smokey is capable of "shape shifting...turning into various animate objects. Remember Yemi? Kate's horse? Christian Shephard? If it's capable of these things, isn't it reasonable to assume that it could cause that lightning strike near Claire and Charlie? I think so.
I don't think that Desmond is clairvoyant at all. I think Smokey is manipulating his mind and then manipulating what is going on around him.
Have we not only witnessed 2 instances of Desmond's flashes?
This is just my opinion, and I realize that everyone is entitled to one. Anyone care to comment or offer their theory? Please...comment away.
As far as what he said to Jack at the stadium, that wasn't necessarily a future flash. It's very possible that he just said that to Jack to lift his spirits. Jack was pretty beat up about it. I think he was just trying to be nice.
About everything else, I'm sticking with my guns. I think that Smokey is manipulating what is going on. The idea that Locke would give a speech about saving Jack, Kate, and Sawyer isn't something that just came out of right field. Somebody has to calm the crowd who would no doubt worry to death about the hero being kidnapped. I mean, who is the number 2 speechmaker? John Locke is. Who would you guess would be the one to try and go save them? John Locke. It isn't inconceivable that smokey put it in Desmond's head that Locke would give a speech....even if it wasn't an utter certainty that he would. Remember.....Smokey has a connection with John Locke. Remember Walkabout?
Are we 100% sure that the mural was painted by Desmond? Those images could have come from anywhere in Desmond's mind. We haven't seen much of his backstory keep in mind.
Desmond hasn't read Our Mutual Friend yet. He hasn't died yet. The only way that you would be able to have time to read a Charles Dickens book right before you died is if you had cancer or some other slowly killing affliction. There's no way you could read it if you were to die suddenly. He didn't know what was going to happen when he turned that key. He thought he was going to die. And he didn't have nearly enough time to read that book before he turned the key.
To me, it just agrees more with the continuity of the show. Time travel and parallel universes just don't add up with what we have seen on Lost. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. It's just my theory, and we will all find out eventually.
My appologies if that was too long. I originally posted it on another forum. I just copied and pasted it from there to here.
Thank you to everyone for your time reading and commenting.
Edgar Casey anyone? Flashes and psychic premonitions seems more plausable to me than time travel in Desmond's case. I think the time bending can be explained more sub-consciously than physically.
Dan said...
As time becomes more and more crucial, I think that this episode started to reveal the genius of this show.
For the past 3 years we've been watching thinking that the flashbacks were nothing more than a clever plot device used to tell the story.
This is the first indication that something we took for granted this entire time might play a very different role.
1:36 PM
This is the crucial point! Kuddos Dan! In my humble and often wrong opinion...I believe Des realizes after looking at that picture that he in fact could lose Penny forever if he does NOT turn the key. It was a moment of unconditional love that made him go nuts and leave her. He wanted her to hate him because then it is easier to leave, then he can enter the race as he needs to and the key will be turned and Penny, even though he is without her, she will be alive. What the woman at the jewelry store said...clearly resonated in his ears...no matter what you do the universe corrects itself. She, in my mind, was a psychic that has become very synical in her experience with helping others. (Not THE others) She sees them die later no matter what she tells them, they will get it in the end...very much like that stupid movie Final Destination as someone else has said. This does in fact remove the thoughts that Christian beliefs in Free Will or incorrect and it does always come into play in SciFi genres.
Bottom line, Des was given another chance, he figured out that without Penny on an island was far better than her complete anialation.
TWO points I saw VERY different than all other flashbacks...ONE, Seeing Charlie and RECOGNIZING him. All other flashbacks they never have a moment like that at all! TWO, when we come back to the island and Des is fighting with Charlie it is as if just you and I saw that flashback...it wasn't like the ones from before where you honestly think the character is reliving the moment in his mind...what do you think of all that?
Man, all this and it is so darn early!
-Heather
What I am about to write is not necessarily relevant. First of, in the jewelry shop, when Des goes to buy the ring, there is a bunch of clocks right behind the weird lady (time lost?).
And second, Penelope in in the Odyssey (Greek mythology) was Odysseus wife who waited for him for 20(!) years until he finally came back and killed all her suitors and restored his family. (honor?)
Maybe our dear Pen is waiting for Desmond, albeit she is not as passive as Odysseus' Penelope was...
Did anybody catch Charlie's middle name on the sign while he was playing guitar in the street in London? It was Hieronymus. Not sure of the significance, but Hieronymus Bosch was a very inventive Dutch painter in the 15th - 16th century. Again, any significance here from any art history buffs in the audience?
Also, Hieronymus is the name of a UK rock band. Their latest album is named "Save The Day"!
I have a theory... let me know what you think about it: The photo of Des and Penny definitely was not taken with a digital camera, and the lovely couple split up only minutes after taking the picture. So it is safe to assume that there exists only ONE photo, and it's in Desmonds hands and on the island.
Now when we look at the end of season 2, we can clearly see the photo on Pennys desk when she receives the phonecall from the arctic station.
The only way this photo could have come to Penny was if that scene actually showed something that will happen LATER than everything that we have seen so far. Desmond must have left the island, returned to Penny - and together they started locating the mysterious island to rescue the rest of the survivors.
So I bet that in season 4 we will the see the phone-call-scene again, but only this time the camera will zoom back and reveal Desmond, lying next to Penny in her bed.
^ That would be awesome.
Wikipedia, source of all 100%-correct knowledge, says that "Hieronymus Bosch, was a prolific Dutch painter of the 15th and 16th centuries. Many of his works depict sin and human moral failings. Bosch used images of demons, half-human animals and machines to evoke fear and confusion to portray the evil of man." Certainly sounds Lost-ish.
There are some other famous Hieronymuses, though I don't really see an obvious connection to any of them.
Volker: I didn't remember that Penny had the picture too. That's deep. You might be onto something, there!
re: hieronymus
1) hieros=sacred, holy; onoma=the name
so basically it means sacred one
2) check out hieronymus machines
Circles!
They are everywhere:
-All throughout the room 23 film
-The old lady's pin (older Penny?)
-Penny's ring thrown into the water
-Damon and Carlton mentioned "circletory"
hey brian -- can you pull screen shots of desmond's photo from the hatch, the one from this ep, and the one on penelope's nightstand? the background in the one from this week has changed, i think. this would definitely support the time loop/new time line theory
I've had a very simple....yer prolific epiphany. The old lady with all the knowledge in Desmond's "flashback" was none other than...Smokey!
"Chris B. said...
I've had a very simple....yer prolific epiphany. The old lady with all the knowledge in Desmond's "flashback" was none other than...Smokey!"
That's what I concluded in my posts. It's a few posts up the page. To me, that is the explanation that makes sense to me.
To Joe D,
Sorry man! didn't mean to steal or borrow any ideas. I had not read your post when I posted mine.
So I agree with you then :)
oh no..I wasn't accusing you of "stealing" my idea. I was more saying that I'm in agreement with you.
We're fighting the same argument :)
Everyone else join us in our brilliance!!
It just makes sense to me. We've seen Smokey take on various forms. I didn't exactly phrase it like you did. I didn't say that the lady in the ring store was smokey, but that is what I meant. Just worded a bit differently. I said more/less that the dream/flashback was a result of smokey and that smokey was responsible for the "flashes" that Des is having.
Volker: Great catch! As I was watching the episode, I remember thinking "aren't they going to take a 2nd picture?" so that Penny could have one, too. But then in all the other exciting stuff that happened I forgot about it. I think you may really be on to something crazy-brilliant! :-)
I just love this show! I love this blog!
Hobbes - the bread loaf thing is bakin' because it fits predestination and free will together. Yes?
Volker - your Des theory may be the biggest easter egg ever. Happy Easter! When do you think we will see the Des/Penny scene - like in 3 more years?
Desmond's journey? Really happened. Somehow Des did travel back to the UK. He did meet oracle lady and we did see an amazing homage to Matrix which expounded on continuing themes of destiny, precognition, free will, Des' drunken binges etc.
A few scenes I loved:
-- The camera closeup of the two men's eyes as Widmore tells Des he isn't fit to drink a pricey whiskey let alone marry his daughter. Ouch!
-- The antique shoppe oracle when she first tells Des that she has the perfect ring for him and then she tells him that he is not going to buy the ring at all because he isn't going to marry Penny. Oops, should of tried Ebay!
-- The look on Charlie's face as he is told that he is going to die no matter what. Priceless!
Keep up the good work Brian!
- Webuffy
Next week, we get Jack's backstory as it relates to the meaning of his tatoos and hot Asian chick. More interesting should be to learn about where other Lostees have been....and what they've been "watching".
im 99% certain this will not happen, but imagine if it did.
Kate and Sawyer get back to the survivors on the main island only to find that
1.they are all really old
2.they are all dead
3.they have been rescued
I just thought of it due to all the 'time loss' theories banded around at the moment. But I am fully aware this will not happen.
I like the circle theory, in that people travel through time in a linear format until something extraordinary happpens, ie. a mysterious hatch/key turning experience that blows you back into your past. I'll leave you brilliant theorists to decide whether Desmond travelled in his body or mind, but I believe he did travel, though in his mind. Otherwise, there would be two Desmonds there in body. He is now stuck in a cycle of traveling past and forward in this fixed formation until he does something different to alter the outcome. Let's suppose on this trip he makes the same basic choices, so he ends up on the island again. I think that in some part of traveling back (or forward) he is overcome by the loss of Pen in so many cycles that he tells her what is going on. That leads her to post the guys in the Artic to look for the magnetic surge/purple sky situation. This allows her to pinpoint the island and find Desmond and the others. Perhaps by this time everyone on the island will redeem themselves (including Desmond) and be able to move forward. He will have done something great to deserve Pen's love. I don't think that Desmond is clairvoyant, just that he has traveled back and forth and has seen the events he is trying to change. He didn't seem to understand at first, in his flat, that he had time traveled, so he may not have made the "right choice" in his first travels to save Charlie, thus he knew in some travel of the cycle that Charlie died. Desmond seems to be a hard headed guy, so he is trying out the theory that he can save him, despite the creepy jewelry ladies instruction.
I don't know if it's important, but re-watching this episode tonight, I realized that Desmond DID change the course of events in his "dream/time travel".
He saved the bartender from being whacked in the face with a cricket bat, and in turn got whacked himself. The first time he changed things, he was sent back to the island.
Any importance?
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