Wednesday, February 11, 2009

"This Place is Death" Instant Reactions!

Brian's Three Word Review: Full Speed Ahead.

Wow. In what may be my favorite episode of this season (so far), we got a LOT of information - but better than that, it seems like someone put their foot on the throttle in terms of the storytelling. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would get a Cliff's Notes version of CFL's story, Locke finding and turning the FDW, Charlotte dying, and Desmond and members of the Oceanic Six reuniting at Ms. Hawking's church... ALL IN THE SAME EPISODE. I loved it. No parts of the story dragged (like last week), and there were a number of scenes that had me grinning ear to ear (although some of this is due to the University of Dayton's HUGE win over the hated Xavier Musketeers tonight - Go Flyers!). Here is what we need to discuss:

  • Charlotte is dead. This just goes to show, you don't need a flashback or character-centric episode to get the full story of a character on Lost. All it takes is a two-minute dialogue from the character that explains everything they know. No secrets held back, no double meanings, no mysterious phrases. Just the facts. If every character on the show would do this, you could wrap up Lost in about three episodes. So what did we learn?
  • Charlotte did "grow up" on the Island. At some point, Faraday is going to skip back to her childhood and warn her to leave the Island and never come back... but we all know she doesn't listen to him. Heck, maybe Faraday also told her mother about this, which is why she lied and told Charlotte she just imagined that the Island existed. I'm guessing this is the going to take place during the skip that we saw to start the season - with Faraday undercover inside the Orchid... but is the skipping going to continue?
  • With Locke turning the FDW - or, more accurately, putting it back on its axis - will that stop the skipping? Will there be one final skip? It's a tricky situation, because when we last saw our Skipping Suvivors, they were somewhere pre-1980, since the Orchid station didn't exist. If this is the last skip, they would be able to wait for Dharma to come to the Island, and we could see Faraday meet young Charlotte and complete the "prophecy" of Charlotte.
  • But the problem is, this would mean they are about 25 years too early to meet back up with the Oceanic Six. Will they spend 25 years on the Island, waiting to catch up to their proper timeline? If so, I'm guessing they won't age during this time. Or, will there still be skipping? If so, our Skipping Survivors aren't really safe yet - which would actually make some sense since Faraday said his mother would be able to save them... not Locke putting the FDW back on its axis.
  • The TEMPLE! Wow - I did not see that coming. Apparently, it's the "lair" for Smokey, which makes it interesting that this is the place Ben told his people to go as "the last safe place on the Island". Although, if Smokey is standing guard there, maybe it makes sense, as long as you agree with his way of thinking...
  • SMOKEY! Wow - so I guess CFL wasn't lying at all. Although her lack of recognition of Jin in Seaosns 1-4 seems even crazier now, it looks like her people did get a "Sickness", which is a brainwash to seemingly become a card-carrying Other. After their encounter with Smokey, The Frenchies knew precisely what he was, were totally calm about it... and totally trying to kill CFL since she didn't have the same beliefs. Remember Krazy Karl's Rave Room and how seemingly brainwashed Cindy seemed to be? Maybe this is how it all ties together. Maybe Smokey possesses them, maybe he just drags them into a room where they get brainwashed, but he gets them to become card carrying members of his cult. Very interesting stuff.
  • Christian Shephard. I love, love, LOVED that he says "say hello to my son" and Locke replies "who's your son?" We forget, but a lot of the characters on Lost don't understand the connections that we as an audience know. Ladies and gentlemen, start the debate about if Christian Shephard is the new Jacob (a ghost-like being) or the reincarnated body of Christian Shephard himself. I'm leaning towards the former (since he couldn't help Locke get up), but I think both are on the table right now.

Okay, I think those are the major points. Let's discuss!





90 comments:

Justin said...

This was my favorite episode of the season hands down. My money is on the Oceanic Six making it back to the island at the very end of next weeks episode. I have no idea what will have happened to the skipping survivors at that point. Brian- do you think we will still see a linear timeline as far as the saywer/juliet and Co. I mean its not linear anymore but its still linear in their minds as far as only 3 months have past since the crash.

Anonymous said...

CFL shouldn't recognize Jin...

If you follow, it seems that the memories people should have from earlier encounters due to time travel don't occur until the time travelers timeline crosses that point. An example being that Faraday talked to Desmond pre-hatch explosion. Desmond didn't have the memory until Faraday's timeline crossed that point. So if CFL was alive she would probably all of a sudden remember Jin from back then, but she's dead.

Of course, Richard seems to be the exception, but being that he doesn't age I guess that's ok.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone else see the tiny red star on th eback of Jin's shirt?

Brian said...

Anonymous - actually, you've got it backwards. Desmond is the exception. Whatever happened, happened - and there is only one timeline / consciousness for people on that timeline... except for Desmond, who is the wild card and can suddenly get new memories of things that happened in the past.

CFL should recognize Jin the same way that Alpert recognized Locke.

timcourtois said...

Hm. Thought this ep was kind of predictable & filler-ish. I mean, it was certainly exciting, but it seemed like the writers were rushing to get some key plotlines (that we really already knew about) out of the way. i.e., Sun has to find out Jin is alive; Charlotte has to die (who didn't see that coming?); which means she has to spill her guts about having been on the island before (knew it already); and we all find out that (gasp!) Ms. Hawking IS Faraday's mother (again, which we all knew 3 weeks ago).
Whatever. I still enjoyed it immensely, but some of the big "reveals" were actually things we already knew.

In any case... what's the point of Charlotte now? Why was she ever in the show to begin with if she was just going to be dispensed with like that? Did the writers just need someone who could translate for Jin for one scene?

Eric said...

Brian, why do you still think that the Survivors are back 25 years in time? I do not believe we know what time it is when the next shift happens. For all we know, they are back in the present and everything is okay. Maybe Locke and Ben are wrong and the Survivors don't need to go back. Maybe all that needed to be done was for Locke to be the leader (make the sacrifice) and turn the FDW to restore order.

Brian said...

Eric - if that was the case, Faraday never went back to the 1980s (the opening scene of the season). This alone seems to prove that the Skipping Survivors are NOT in the present yet, since we haven't seen that scene yet.

VictorC said...

Brian did you catch what happened when the rope Sawyer was holding stayed underground?
It's possible this is how Dharma found the FDW in the first place.

Smokey resting in the Temple brings up some pretty crazy implications...

Man, what an amazing episode.

Steve said...

Brian- just a random thought I had and probably not even close but you talking about how the Skippers are now 25 years in the past and may have to wait the 25 years unaged to wait for the Six to come back...what if something similar happened to Richard and he skipped far further back in time? This might explain why he doesn't age and still knows so much about what is going on with the island...because he went through most of these things at one point. Probably way off but worth a shot

Brian said...

VictorC - GREAT thought! If I came across a rope going straight into the ground, I know I would research it... but the question is - would the well come first? Or did the well get torn down and filled in?

Anonymous said...

Yes Desmond is the exception because he can change things.

But what I am saying is that the people do not remember the time travelers until the time travelers go back to the time to visit them. At that time, the current version of those characters would remember the encounter.

Whatever happened-happened, but it doesn't happen until it happens.

Up to the point the meeting happens, I don't think it's happened yet. So the people with linear time lines don't know about it until the criss-cross time lines of time travelers cross theres in the past.

Anonymous said...

Brian,
Who's the last dead man coming to the island : Christian Shephard. Who's the next one : Locke. Is it just me or Is there a connection?

Thanks
Ben

Rob Rose said...

- Have Danielle and Jin ever formerly met in the first four seasons? I mean I'm pretty sure the LOST guys have thought of this... plus 16 years alone andof losing her mind could just explain it.

- GODDAMN, Jin certainly did learn a SHITLOAD of english floating around on a piece of wood, skipping through time, huh?

- Charlotte's death... was rally creepy.. and unexpected, but with LOST moving as fast as it is these days it was really no where near a shocking moment. Its a shame that those three episodes were cut last year because of the strike as i've heard Lindeloff and Cuse say that they had originally wanted to have one of the shows last year tobe centric to her.. they explained they wanted to go into Miles and Faraday's past as well, but that they were most disappointed with not forwarding Charlotte's story (Season 4 Finale DVD Commentary). Now I obviously see why, as she was destined to die in an early episode this year... perhaps thats why they resorted to the 2 minute dialogue... although it was very different, and fitting with the 250 MPH show we've got these days.

- Wow, I just realized... LOCKE's OFF THE ISLAND... He's just off now. Thats it... 5th episode and he's off.. THATS CRAZY! ... just a few hours until the Oceanic 6 has to COME BACK wow... I really thought that we'd be alot closer to the end of the Season by this point... we have like 10 Episodes left.

- Wow I gotta say it was really satistfying seeing the French Team hear the numbers on the walky talky AND to see Danielle shoot her husband was amazingly awesome to finally see after all these years... and I gotta say seeing Jin keep Danielle outta the hole was kinda heartbeaking knowing at the time that she and Alex end up dead AND finding out after THAT may be the reason why she is forced to kill everyone... because she didnt go down that hole.

GREAT EPISODE... although I really did want a "YOU?.." outta desmonde when he saw Mrs Hawkings

Anonymous said...

It makes sense now that Annie would be Charlotte's mother. Before she dies she mentions that she was on the island during the Dharma Initiative's time.

What if Ben, who was in love with Annie at the time, learned that she had a baby with someone else and gave birth on the island. This will make him angry, similar to how he reacted to Juliet's "betrayal". This anger he feels will make him all the more ready to act impulsively when Richard tells him he has to kill off the Dharma Initiative. Ben who still loves Annie despite what she did will tell her about it in order to warn her and her daughter to hide. However, Annie will become angry with Ben for agreeing to kill off everyone and decides to leave once and for all with Charlotte who would be too young to really remember Ben.

Perhaps this would make sense then why Ben would shoot Charlotte later on? Maybe he was resentful to her for making Annie leave the island.

Also, maybe Ben wanted to leave the island on purpose to find Annie and so that is why he volunteered himself to turn the wheel even though he knew himself that Locke had to.

tonysee200x said...

I was wondering if they were focusing on her ability to speak Korean and the fact she was born on the island to foreshadow that she was Candles daughter? (or I'll ask, was candle Korean?)

Anonymous said...

I agree 100% with timcourtois's comment about tonight's episode being filler & predictable for the most part. I was very suprised that this wasn't a more common reaction! Eh, the important thing is at least there were a few events that moved the storyline forward and gave us some more answers.

~Tara

VictorC said...

I would have to look at the screenshots, but when Locked looked up, it looked like the top of a cave.

If that's the case, I think the FDW was underground, then when Sawyer left the rope they found it and dug a well, and later built the Orchid on top of it.

Rob Rose said...

Holy shit... not to jump the gun... but next week's episode is titled 316....which probably refers to John 3:16... are we gonna see John off the island ALREADY?

RR said...

OH AND WOW DOES JOHN 3:16 FIT LOCKE'S JOURNEY OFF THE ISLAND.... 100% AWESOOOMMME

Steve said...

Two Steve's!

I like the rope in the ground idea... but remember, there was what looked to be an ancient well there. Darma built the orchid because of the well... but the well was apparently built well before dharma.

So if the rope was in the ground... maybe that's how the 'others' found the wheel? And I'm talking a LONG time ago, nothing recent.

I was also thinking... looked like Smokey is very very old. A guardian of the temple. I loved the way they threw that out there. So much for being a dharma creation. Protector of the temple. Someone will surely translate the hyrogliphs on the temple soon.

Another quote I liked.. (but it's from memory, so I'll probably get it wrong).

Christian: "John, I asked you to move the wheel"

Locke: "Ben said he would do it, he said i had to stay behind and take care of my people"

Christian: (sigh) "Since when did listening to him get you anywhere?"

Wow.. is this suggesting that Ben is not that well respected by the island? We saw that Alpert didn't seem to respect him much either. Is this attitude a suggestion that Ben and Widmore both have agendas that aren't in the islands best interests? It certainly suggests that Jacob doesn't think ben can be trusted. As there is some link between Christian and Jacob... but I don't think he's jacob.

But this is also confusing. Most visions off the island seem to say "don't bring him back"(charlie and voice on the phone). Who is he? Ben? Aaron? Locke? But christian tells Locke he must get them ALL back.

We also see why Locke didn't tell Sun that Jin was alive. But really.. producing a ring? Is that really evidence that Jin is alive? Or evidence that he's dead? As Jin suggested? Obviously, Sun was an easy buy in. But she's going to leave her daughter? Really?

Previews.. if your sensitive to them, don't read this, but it makes it look like Hurley and Kate are on board. I'm a little shocked, I didn't think it Sayid would be the hold out... but Desmond will be a hard sell too with Penny and his child.

I've rambled enough.. g'night all.

REAL Steve

Anonymous said...

Tonysee...

Come on.. Miles is Candles daughter... what planet are you on!

PianoPaul04 said...

When Christian Shephard arrived on The Island, he was already dead body arrived in a casket. We then see him become "the voice of Jacob."

When John Locke arrives on The Island he will be already dead and (presumably) be in a casket. I predict that we will see Locke "live" again on The Island, and he will speak on behalf of Jacob.

This would be Locke's pay-off for the "sacrifice" that Christian/Jacob mentioned.

Anonymous said...

Tonysee has me all mixed up.

Miles is Candles SON. Where the heck did you get a redheaded girl from Candle and his asian wife(you saw her in the first episode this season)

Are you trolling?

Tim said...

She did have one mysterious comment. "I know more about Carthage than Hannibal." Tunisia tie-in? This is where Ben appeared when he blipped off the island.

Steve said...

Anon: Brian is right, you have it backwards. What happens happens, and is remembered. I'm sure that Widmore remembers Locke, Charlotte, Faraday and Miles.
I'm sure Ellie remembers Faraday.

Time is a string, but this one kind of loops a bit, but where people met others, they do remember.

You're basing everything on Desmond 'remembering'.. but he's the exception.

What you're suggesting would change the string of time.. and that's against the rules.

Lets use Danielle. Jin is the reason she didn't get the sickness. Jin was leading them to the radio tower. That's the reason they found the temple. That would not have happened in that manner if Jin had not been there, they may not have gotten 'sick' and she may not have had to kill them. The future would not be the same if Jin had not been there.

You seem to be suggesting that because Jin is travelling in time, that Danielle just won't remember him.. then suddenly wake up with a memory?

I've always hated time travel because of the paradox. In hearing Damon and Carlton talk, they have the exact same opinion on time travel I do. They are going to follow a set of rules and avoid the classic paradox: if you travel back in time, you must have always done it because to change even a small thing in the past would prevent you from ever being in the position to come back in the first place. OK, I'm not one for words, but basically it's 'what happened, happened'.

Steve said...

Tim.. yes... I liked that quote too. Could she be suggesting a tie in with ancient carthage and the island? God, I hope the island isn't Atlantis.

Anonymous said...

John 3:16

So John.. leaves the island (heaven) to the world, to give his life so that the island and others an live. (and maybe the world?).

And the Island resurrects or reincarnates him?

Yeah, I can see that. It might offend a lot of people though. Neat idea.

Anonymous said...

Follow up:

Remember that John's mom said he was immacualtely conceived. We know better from the flashback, but could Johns real dad be the Island/Jacob?

I'm not suggesting they would go there. Just pointing this out.

Heidi Shadows said...

CFL doesn't recognize 'present' Jin for the same reason Faraday has to 'learn' about Charlotte's past as if he were hearing it for the first time!!

Leadfoot said...

To Anonymous at 11:09pm -- Yes!! I did see the little red star on the back of Jin's shoulder. WTF?

I also noticed something in the picture when Charlotte died. Look to the right of where she and Daniel are. There appears to be an oblong box -- maybe a casket? -- towards the center-right of the screen, near the river bank.

Weird.

Anonymous said...

In facethewoods, someone was talking about the simularities between the hatch implosion and the time travel.

Brian suggested that some of the 'energy' from the FDW may have been released in that imposion.

Carlton and Damon have always said the hatch did something significant. Could it be that it damaged the donkey wheel?

Then you have the 'Jughead' theory for the swan, which I only give a bit of outside confidence because of the thick concrete housing.

Lisa said...

A couple people have mentioned the red star on Jin's shirt. I noticed it too, but I didn't think it had any significance. What's the meaning of that?

Hector said...

I thought that episode itself, minus the great reveals, was ill-paced. You loved the fast pacedness of it, but it think that was its downfall. Actually, the bad writing was its downfall. Scenes that should have had an incredible impact in how they were played out (particularly that last scene with danielle) seemed a bit cheesy/campy. That, mixed in with the TERRIBLE cinematography (I was getting a headache from all the bouncing around1)...just had me wishing more for an episode with such a strong impact on the whole story.

My fav bit, was Ben pulling over the van and yelling at Sun and Jack. We go from thinking Ben was this all-knowing badass....to just a good leader badass...to, during the last few weeks, questioning his badassness in the face of new info revealing that he's a small part of this master deal, to now...reaffirming his "badass" status. True, he may not know all the answers or even be remotely in charge but, he's one of, if not the most integral characters at the moment.

Also, I'm very curious to see what's going to happen with all the "gotta go back/cant take this person/tell sun im dead/clare doesn't want aaron back" drama.

Lisa said...

I wonder if Charlotte is the daughter of the Goodspeeds? We know Horace died in the Purge, but we don't know what happened to Olivia. Maybe Charlotte was their daughter and left the island with Olivia.

Anonymous said...

Christian Sheppard's comment to Locke about turning the wheel himself (vs allowing Ben to do it), needless to say, begs for examination. What would the outcome had been if Locke, not Ben, turned the wheel with Ben remaining on the Island?

In the final scene with Mrs. Hawkin, did they show Desmond's reaction? As pointed out by someone else on this comments page, this should be a MAJOR reveal to Desmond and not rushed by the writters.

Anonymous said...

Charlotte referencing something related to her knowing "Carthage better than Hannibal" also is mildly curious. Are our writers just showing us their history knowedge? Hannibal was said to be the best military strategist in history. What relevance could this possibly have?

Jacob said...

What a freaking episode.
Is it possible that putting the FDW back on it's axis caused a hiccup instead of a skip (for some people). Maybe Daniel is now stuck in 1980 but the rest of the jumpers are in the present timeline of the 06? That's my theory.
And is anybody's head hurting from trying to figure out the timeline based on the orchid station and the well and than the buried well?
Did they initially find the Orchid Station from the future but than they jumped back to pre-dharma and than jumped forward to either Dharma-time or present time?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if there is any meaning behind the music box Jin saw that was playing prior to Russo shooting her bf? Also, Jin must have saved Russo - he told her not to go down into the smoke hole but yet he wasn't really there in 1988. So bizarre!

WeirdRash said...

Okay here is a perplexing question.

They flash and the well disappears except for a rope in the ground...so what year are the Skippers in now???

Are they far back in time before the well was built or some future period when the well has been destroyed?

italiangirl2392 said...

I bet Charlotte is Annie and Bens daughter...How interesting would that be...Also, I am curious..where are the other survivors? We havent seen them since last eppi of last season..The lady that is going to help them get back to the island, is that Faradays mother?

italiangirl2392 said...

Oooo one more question...How is it 3 months that have passed on the island since the 6 left but its 3 years for the 6 off the island?

Anonymous said...

Great thought Charlotte being Ben and Annie's daughter. I think Danial is Penny's brother the son of Eloise (Ellie in the 1948 flashback)and Charles Whidmore.

JP said...

alot of people are commenting on how Jin changed the future by telling Russo not to go into the hole. But back in season 1, Sayid and her are pointing guns at each other...Sayid pulls the trigger, and it clicks. She says the firing pin has been removed, and that Robert hadn't noticed it either when she killed him. So what happens happens, Jin didn't change anything.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, it's not that X ammount of time has passed on the island while 3 years has passed off the island - it's just the way the story's being told, as was the case with flashbacks and flashforwards.

Secondly, Jin had always met CFL back in 88. There are a few reasons why she not remember (she is crazy, remember) but I'm thinking it has something to do with not being able to change what is meant to happen. Charlotte couldn't remember being told not to come by by Daniel until her last moments, as it would have stopped her from trying to come back. I think the memories can only be realised if the information in them is not going to affect what is destined to happen.

Craig

Steve said...

Anon:

Yes, Jin WAS there in 1988! He was ALWAYS there in 1988, but he didn't know that until 2005 when he jumped back to 1988. Danielle knew he was there.


Why she didn't react? We can debate, but the real reason makes the argument pointless.

The facts are these: The writers did not know this was going to happen in season 2 or even int he first part of season 4. CFL asked to be written off the show(as per an interview with her husband last year). They had always planned a CFL flashback, but now they needed a creative way to tell it with her being dead.

It was clever writing really. They gave a couple reveals and a flashback through the time jump, u they needed one of the 815 survivors to be present, and Jin was a perfect choice.

So in LOST Canon, CFL always found Jin, and Jin was always there with her team in 1988. It wasn't always known as the writers, but Jin was chosen because of his limited exposure to CFL to make it more believable.

Great writing if you ask me. All in all, that little tidbit was more for us mythology fans than anything else. The only real point was the explain the sickness, help explain the Smoke Monster, and show a 'cliff notes' background of CFL.

One note: I think CFL's described sickness is different than what Desmond was trying to avoid, etc.

I'm also concerned that she said that they got the sickness after encountering the black rock, but she's well aware that they got the sickness from being in smokeys lair, not the black rock, so the writing isn't perfect. But being that she's crazy, we can always use that as a cover for writing inconsistancies!

Steve said...

And yes brian, my use of

"The facts are these:" is a tribute to the late 'Pushing Daisies".

Anonymous said...

I was absolutely shocked when Montand's arm came flying off. I mean, it's just not something you see coming.

Dharma Mayonnaise said...

Looking forward to the full analysis, Brian! I think I might rewatch tonight after 30 Rock.

Is it just me or does anynoe else die just a little bit inside everytime that the black screen with 'Lost' shows up and I realize that the episode is already over and I have to wait a week (or longer in some cases) until the next one.

Also, I am very interested to see what Ben's fate is. With his comment to Jack and Sun about 'all the things he's had to go through to keep you and your friends safe' and Christian's seemingly disappointment/disapproval of his actions, it'll be interesting to see what lies ahead for Ben.

Anonymous said...

my own 1 word summary of this episode was "rushed". don't get me wrong -- i enjoyed it as i enjoy every episode but felt many very key scenes lacked the attention to detail we've all come to know and love about LOST. one, albeit small example, is when the O6 gang...along with Desmond...see Mrs Hawkin. I would have wanted to see some sort of reaction from Desmond. Him seeing her should be an absolute mind-f....ker and portrayed as such. Don't you all agree??

Anonymous said...

Whats the conncetion between Desmond and Mrs. Hawkins...Everyone keeps commenting on Desmonds lack of response upon seeing her...Who is Mrs. Hawkins?

Luke said...

Is anyone else questioning Ben & Mrs. Hawking? Why would they say at first that EVERYONE needs to return? At first, I had thought it was a physical requirement for them to return to the island, but with Mrs. Hawking saying that they will just have to go with the survivors they have, it makes me think it was more of a motivational reason for them to get them all to go back.

I don't trust Ben, and I think that is something the writers have reminded us of consistently. I don't know why at this point, but I think Ben/Mrs. Hawking's reasons for getting them all back is for selfish reasons rather than being necessary. Does anyone have a better explanation for this end-of-episode realization?

Also, regarding the physical state of Christian Shepherd, I thought him telling John that he couldn't help John up was more a matter of motivation and John having to make the decision to go die than Christian not being able to help him up because he's a ghost or something.

Rob Rose said...

John Locke 3:16

For Jacob so loved the island that he gave his one and only chosen one, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life... on the island

Anonymous said...

What I've been wondering about is the time of the well scene. There is a well that Locke is being lowered into. Charlotte told them to look in the well. So she knew it was there due to her childhood. This would put the well before the Orchid. During the last jump, Sawyer was left holding the rope. Was this jump a before or after. (Side note, I assume the rope stayed because Sawyer was holding it). So with that being said, is it Sawyer's fault that the wheel was even found? It gave someone the idea to dig. I can't remember what happened to the people outside the well once Locke fixed it. Did they have another time jump?

Ben said...

The connection between desmond and Mrs Hawking, was that when we was doing his flashbacks, He tried to buy the ring from her, and she said you can't buy this ring, you have to go to the island, you have to push the button...most everyone at the time thought it was the island or something in his subcounoius being telling him what he had to do. But when he actually see's her, that should have been a revelation to him that she was real. her picture was also on the desk of the head monk when we worked in the winery. And when they talked, she let the guy in the red shoes die by having the bricks fall on him. Telling desmond he can't change whats going to happen so why try anyway.

Someone mentioned that they didn't go to the black rock? are you sure? that arm looked pretty old, maybe the other side of the tunnel went to the black rock or maybe they found that on the way back to the beach. Its hard to say, but I don't think you can say they didn't go to the Black Rock. I do agree that the two sickness's (Desmonds and Danielles) were assumed the same but look to be different.

Also another thought. Mind exploding time, if the survivors go back in time 25 years and have to wait it out....Juliet could have sawyers kid and then that kid gets off the island, becomes and anthropologist and then comes back to the island. Therefore, Charlotte is Juliet and Sawyers kid....haha, j/k.

Commish said...

Anyone have any ideas why Charlotte became an anthropologist to find the island? Seems like physicist or even archeologist would have been better career choices. What does anthropology have to do with finding the island?

Anonymous said...

More on the time travel thing... how come it doesn't apply to the redshirts? Frogurt travelled back in time and was killed by a flaming arrow. What happens to him in the present? Does he cease to exist?

Jagged Diary said...

I've got about 23,763 more questions after reading this post but I wanted to mention that maybe we will finally get to see what's up with the 4 toed statue now. Maybe the jumpers are waaaay back in time, before the well was built (it had to start somewhere!).

Locke is off the island, but WHEN is he off the island? How long does he try to convince everyone that they have to go back before his "suicide"?

jon said...

GREAT GREAT GREAT! So darn thrilling!

Steve: great elaboration on how Jin meeting CFL still can make sense! Your bit about the CFL actor leaving makes me think of the tremendous effort needed to keep a show of this magnitude and lenght together as a coherent whole. Writers always run the risk of by mistake having inconsistencies in the narrative. Here they had to when shooting season 1 make sure that it could develop in the way that it has (I'm presuming that the exact details of all episodes were far from completed back then). Then there's all the external factors: one actor wants of the show, another wants more money, it is even possible that a leading role actor could die IRL (I hope not!). Then there's the TV network execs looking at the rating and the bottom line who might pressure the writers to add more action, remove some of this, add some of that. And a strike suddenly trimming away several episodes. Making a great show under such circumstances is hard work. Compare it to a novelist. While the novel may take years to finish, the writer does not have to worry about any characters quitting.

So what I'm saying is: what a great job they're doing despite all of that! I hope they'll keep on keeping on until the end.

Regarding when they are after Locke moves the wheel: my guess from last week still fits. They're a long way back in time. Before Dharma, before the others. Maybe thousands of years back. Locke's action stops the skipping so now they're stuck in that time and will be for quite some time. Many things can happen but chances are Sawyer becomes a hero and is made into a statue (four toes, remember!) The theme of the rest of the season will for the ex-skippers centre around discovering the ancient history of the island (smokey, the temple...) and the precent day team will work on some way to get the ex-skippers back to present. The only thing not fitting so well with this is Faradays presence in 1960. But that could be shown to be part of the getting-back-from-ancient-times-process.

Some other brief thoughts:

- when Jin needed translation, it seems like he deliberately asked Charlotte (though the rest mistook him for asking Miles). How is that possible?

- When Ben found out that Desmond was looking for FARADAY'S MOTHER he froze for a second. Did he not know that she was? Or did he first not understand how Desmond could know that? (And did it only take him one fracking second to put all the pieces together?!)

Anonymous said...

the episode closed without definitive evidence of where miles, farriday, julet, and sawyer current exist on the LOST timeline.

the sequence went as follows:

1) Lowered Locke into well pre-DHARMA but post well construction

2) Time changes dropping locke to the FDW - other survivors left holding rope with no well - but no conclusive evidence the orchid is or is not around the corner

3) Locke stabilizes the FDW

Did the third event trigger a new time shift?

jon said...

Another version of my prognosis above: maybe the ex-skippers end up not in ancient times but instead whenever the black pearl & crew have arrived. Sawyer frees the natives that the amoral black pearlers have captivated and is rewarded with a statue. That could tie together a lot of loose ends: the black pearl, the natives (including smokey, the temple...)

Jagged Diary said...

jon-

Jin knew Charlotte spoke Korean because he noticed that she understood a conversation between Sun and himself.

Crazy theory: maybe Charlotte is the baby in the first episode? Chang's baby. Maybe they adopted her? She and her mohter left the island but her dad stayed behind so it could be Change. He knew somethignw as going tohappen so he sent the baby and the mom off the island...I don't know, it makes sense in my head. I 'll think about this more.

Steve said...

Jon: You hit it exactly. Running any show is complex, but one with this detail, to keep it on track to the level they have, is amazing.

To run a show do dependent on characters, you can't commit the character too heavily as anything could happen. You have to be flexible and creative. This is expecially true with guest stars who are not under contract.

Damon and Carlton said that they felt like they were in the cages with Kate and Sawyer a the begining of season 3. The reason? They didn't know how long the show was going to run, so they really couldn't start resolving the story until they knew how much time they had to tell it. All very encouraging. These guys are sharp, and they adjust the best they can.

Steve said...

Comish: I think anthropology is very important. She was on the island as a child, she knows what what ancient structures and writings were on the island.


Surely, in an attempt to get back to the island, she studied multiple cultures to try to find common ground with what she saw as a little girl on the island.

The fact that she specialilized in Carthage, which is in presetn day Tunisia. She was in Tunisia spotting polar bear bones with Dharma logos last season. Ben was 'transported' to Tunisia after moving the FDW, and my bet is that Locke ends up there as well.

This all sounds good right? Well, The Cathaginian empire never covered egypt, their script was Punic(phoenician)

But Hannibal's story as of the second punic war(200bc). Rome conquered and destroyed Carthage in the third punic war(146bc).

Afterwards, LATIN would probably prevail after Rome rebuilt the city. The language of the enlightened?

The problems:

- Charlotte didn't bother to learn Latin.. interesting, but Korean?

- Egypt isn't really close to carthage, and all I see on the temple and other places are egyption Hyroglyphics.

But I thin it's obvious she saw something as a chold that led her to Tunisia and Carthage.

Anonymous said...

no doubt to me that Carlton and Lindeloff are brilliant in many respects. as story-tellers, they have cast the most ambitious, compeelling show ever on network tv. as business people, in several ways, they have re-invented the model to leverage a tv show into a more optimized, profit making entity.

in producing the show, their attention to detail....as it relates to continuity matters, story-arc resolutions, etc is fanatical. the production team they assembled must be world class people with very bright,creative minds. I would imagine that JJ Ahbrams conceptualized the most very basic arc of the LOST saga but C&L (i think only one has creative credit, right?) really honed the story/mythology and made the show what it is today (as compared to a show like Fringe!).

Ellis said...

Last week it was, "What if we can't get them all to come back?" "Then GOD HELP US ALL!!!" *Dun dun DUNNNN*

Now this week it's, "What if we can't get them all?" "Then we'll just go with what we have. *Yawn*"

Bit of a switch.

Leadfoot said...

Did anyone else scream out "NOoooooooooooooooo!" when Sawyer started bleeding from the nose?

wgh said...

Christian... so great at being creepy. Something about the way he tells John he can't help him up tells me he's not just being motivational...

I like the earlier observation that John will return to the island like Christian... in a casket... perhaps to "live on" in a similar fashion.

Anonymous said...

It's funny that it never occured to me the religious implications/references of 'Christian' and 'Shepherd'. lol. Add in John (Locke) 316 this week and there should be aboatload of biblical references.

VictorC said...

Yeah, there are quite a few Biblical references in the show.
Among the ones you included is Jacob, which was Israel's name before God changed it.

You also have Abaddon, which is Greek for "place of destruction," but based on his description in the Bible, it's really Satan.
I'm sure there are more I can't remember right now.

Steve, how do you know Charlotte doesn't speak Latin? the only languages I remember the show revealing that she spoke are English and Korean. She probably knew quite a few languages, including how to read hieroglyphics.
It's a shame she's dead, she would have been extremely helpful with that.

Rebecca said...

I've got mixed feelings on this episode, we did get a lot of information but much of it was just confirming stuff that we already figured out. Though, maybe not ALL viewers are so obsessed as us and think about the show throughout the week putting the pieces together so there may have been a lot of gasps when Mrs. Hawking was revealed as Eloise & Daniel's mom?

I would have liked more of a back story on CFL...but with all that happened to & around her on that island, no wonder she went crazy.

I thought the urgency with Mrs. Hawking definitely changed this week. I'm looking forward to next week though, maybe we'll get to see Des' reaction then.

I thought it was funny when Sawyer asked Miles to interpret and he was like "Dude, he's from Korea I'm from Encino" LOL

Smaelb said...

Why do you assume that the time skippings have stopped with locke out? We still have to see the real reason of the skipping: the O6 out or Ben's wrong wheel turning? I think it's clear that without the 6 back, sawyer&co are still in danger (that Bentham's words), no matter if the FDW is fixed.

Smaelb said...

just a thought. Remember back in season one: WTF is this hatch??? sounds ridiculous now! And yet we still don't know what's really down there :)

Craig said...

Steve - the person who commented on Charlotte not knowing Latin was probably referencing when she told Daniel that Korean was the only other language she spoke (along with Klingon). That being said though, Juliet said that 'Others' learnt to speak Latin, but Charlotte already said she was on the Island with Dharma - maybe it wasn't a requirement for them, or she was too young?

In regards to the skipping, I'm not sure if it will continue from now on, but I'm also pretty sure there is one final skip we've yet to see. When Locke was lowered down the well, we saw the 'time-skip-like' energy being released from that area, which we saw when he turned the FDW. This last push will surely have at least caused one more skip

Nick said...

The Temple isn't Smokey's 'homebase' according to the Producers, but they likened it to a summer home.

Anonymous said...

I guess we know why faraday was crying when he saw the news about the oceanic plane being found last season... reminded him of charlotte's death even though it hadn't happened yet... freaky!

Anonymous said...

So we know that Daniel told Charlotte not to return to the island, that she would die if she returned. But when did this occur from Daniel's perspective? He COULD end up in Dharma as the result of a coming time shift, but why would he ever give Charlotte such a message now that he knows she's already dead, that you can't change what happens, and that she returned to the island in spite of his warning? I just can't imagine Daniel doing it, knowing what he knows now.

So maybe Daniel has visited the island before, has time-shifted before, and has already worked for Dharma (even from his own perspective), but he doesn't remember any of it because of his amnesia issues.

Sheryll said...

Random thoughts and questions...

With all this mention that all of the O6 have to return to the island, I've heard no mention of Sun's baby (is it Ji Yeon?) having to return. Sun must be torn thinking once she returns to the island she may never leave and thus never see her daughter again. Is it more important to a mother to find her husband or to care for her daughter? I'm sure the writers would have considered this emotion and hopefully will address whether the daughter must return as well.

I'm confused about the timing of the return to the island as far as aging. If Aaron and Sun's daughter both return, or at least Aaron does, what age will they be? When our survivors stop skipping will they have jumped three years ahead and so it would be right for Aaron to be three? Will our O6 jump back in time and Aaron will be an infant again? And will we ever find out what happened to Claire?

I also thought that Hawking being Faraday's mother was new knowledge to Ben.

Poor Sawyer and the rest thinking John was buried alive in the ground when the well disappeared.

why in the world are the O6 who are considering returning to the island screaming Not until you tell us what the hell is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did Ben kill Locke? Ben said he went to visit Locke, not the other way around. It looked like a suicide but we don't know yet. How about Ben saying he has been protecting them while they've been off the island?

Could Widmore be Charlotte's father? Sorry...long shot, I know. But we don't know how long Widmore was on the island.

Smaelb said...

Don't you think that Locke learned somehow the Shephard connexion, and told Jack his father says hi ? That would make Jack "such a believer".

And what about Ben killing Penny ? It seems like he just got an opening...

Anonymous said...

why in the world are the O6 who are considering returning to the island screaming Not until you tell us what the hell is going on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess this can be explained as the extreme weirdness they've been living with since returning home (ie; Jack seeing his dead father, Hurley getting all sorts of weird visits from dead people, Sun to find her husband, etc).

I don't think it was ever revealed that Locke knows who Jack's father was. Yeah, it would be cool if he gave Jack the message that your father "say's hi".

Anonymous said...

i wonder if c&l will do some sort of 1 hour dedicated wrap after next season, either on-line or on tv, to try to answer the endless or at least key questions we all will presumably still have after the final show airs.

Ben said...

I would assume that would be on the DVD. hopefully there aren't that many questions left unanswered. But we'll see.

Renee said...

Two things I caught (I think!)
1.Was the music box on the beach the same one that Sayid fixed for Rousseau?
2.I swear I heard Charlotte mumble something about Geronimo Jackson before she died....hmmm?!

Anonymous said...

of course that was CFL's music box and it wasn't subtle that Charlotte mumble that she loves Geronimo Jackson

Renee said...

okay.....

rutkowskilives said...

Two thoughts:

1, I've got a hunch that we're going to see Walt again really soon, and he's going to become really important. Obviously with the way the timeline has changed Walt's growth spurt isn't an issue.

2, when do the on-Islander time jumpers sleep?

italiangirl2392 said...

Okay, I just rewatched again and I have some questions....Daniel was on the Island back in the Darhma days...and like Alpert, he hasnt aged...has anyone noticed that? Also, I assumed at first that CHarlotte was getting the nose bleeds because she was on the Island previous too...but now everyone got the nose bleeds except for Daniel..I wonder why...For the life of me I cant think of "the guy from Encinos" name but along with myself beliving Charlotte is Annie and Bens daughter, I also believe he is Candles son...Follow me?

Hobbes said...

Good call on the music box Renee!

I can see Dr. Chang being Miles Dad but not Charlottes'. But someone mention Horace Godspeed possibly being her Dad, that was a good connection.

As for the left foot of the four toed statue (FTS) being Sawyer I don't think so. In S05 E02, about 31 minutes in, Sawyer steps on one hell of a sliver. Freeze framing it you see that it is his left foot and he indeed has all five toes. -- ooof course I guess it's possible he gets it chopped off but I think it is to lead us to suspect that it (FTS) is a survivor but not Sawyer. Unless ooof course! it is meant to trick us and then bam it ends up being Sawyer. But really I think it's someone else.

hobbes said...

rutkowskilives - lol, I've been wondering that too. It seems the skippers have been going non-stop. The only time they were about to rest was when Miles brought back the dead boar but then they've been on the run since dodging flaming arrows.

Anonymous said...

There were many questions on this blog and the previous blog about what other people nearby experience the moment our survivors skip. Do they see any sort of flash? Do they see the person they were just talking to (ie, Richard talking to Locke) disapear? Well...last week, the writters gave us the first indication when Daniel, holding the rifle to Sun, said "you disappeared" and must be infected too (or something to that effect). If Daniel's experience is meant to be representative of anyone elses, then it would stand to reason that people who are next to one of our skippers will not see any bright lights and screeching sound but will see the person they were just talking with disapear. My question then becomes if the "non-skipper" holds this in their memory or not. With Daniel, as mentioned in this post, she never gave any indication of recognizing Sun when we meet her later in her life (previous seasons).

goklemez said...

We saw three frenchmen's dead body but not the first one whose left arm dropped off. May be he survived after and initiated to the others.

also, in 1954, widmore and his colleague threathened to chop off juliette's second arm, first arm will be chopped off anyway as a beginning (I don't recall if they mentioned they are going to cut the left arm.)

finally, our alias master pierre chang's left arm was missing in swan orientation video.

Just to point out...may be overthinking on it.

Also, there was this incident involving Alvar Hanso and MDG(whatever it stands for, Mittlewerk, DeGroots may be) noted on blastdoor map, swan video, etc. do we have any clue about it?