Brian's One Word Review: Intense.
Holy crap - although there were some slow parts to this episode, the last five minutes were maybe as intense a scene as we've ever seen on Lost. Smokey rolling through the Temple, mercilessly killing anyone and everyone that gets in his way, our Survivors fleeing in terror, becoming separated, and Sayid seemingly losing his soul once and for all - it all added up to a scene where my heart was pounding by the time it was over... and gave us a glimpse at how intense these final episodes of Lost could be.
So what did we learn?
Poor Sayid. Apparently he was dead for a whopping two hours in "LA X" before coming back to life, plenty of time for him to become claimed by Anti-Jacob, I suppose (remember, the Others were always adamant on burying their people right away to prevent this from happening). If it weren't for Locke, Sayid would be the most tragic character on Lost - a torturer who spent the rest of his life trying to atone for his sins, but could never forgive himself. There was some nice, heavy symbolism between the conversations between Dogen and Sayid - talking about the balance between "good" and "evil". It was almost as if Dogen initially "read" Sayid to be evil based on his past, and Sayid tried to convince him that he was actually good - even though he had a sketchy past.
But in the end, it looks like the darkness finally claimed Sayid.
His cold-blooded killing of Dogen and Lennon was something more than someone getting his revenge on the people who attempted to indirectly kill him twice - it was brutal, calculated, and Sayid was sporting a new little crazy in his eyes, like he was enjoying every moment of it.
PS - I can't lie, I can't help but feel happy to be rid of Dogen and Lennon. They represented unnecessary new characters to withhold secrets from our Survivors.
Likewise, the Off-Island action featured the same balance between good and evil for Sayid. He confided in Nadia that he loved her, but didn't deserve her because of all the terrible things he had done in his life, terrible things he had not yet atoned for. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't escape his past, and found himself killing Keamy and Co... and stumbling across Jin.
Off-Island. In other news, look for the new popular explanation for the Off-Island action to be "Anti-Jacob giving the Survivors exactly what they wanted in their hearts". He told Sayid that he could give him whatever he wished, even if his wish seemed impossible - to be together with his dead wife, Nadia.
Well, take a look at what we've seen in the Off-Island action. Does it represent exactly what our Survivors wanted, in perhaps a "deal with the devil" sort of twist, where it's technically what you thought you wanted - but might not be exactly right?
Sayid - gets to hang with Nadia... but is still a killer... and his brother is married to her.
Dogen - gets to be with his son... but living in Los Angeles.
Jack - is a good father, the kind his father never was... but is divorced / not married.
Locke - finds love... but is still paralyzed, and not doing anything "great" with his life.
Kate - helped Claire and Aaron by taking them to the hospital... but is a fugitive.
Claire - is with Aaron, but now perhaps stranded in Los Angeles, away from her family?
Sun and Jin - are together, but seemingly in the same "bad marriage" that we saw in Season One?
I have to admit, I'm kinda a fan of this twist. It's similar to what I was thinking last week - where the Survivors get to "choose their fate", but instead of making this deal with Jacob - it might be with Anti-Jacob... and there might be little twists and unexpected results from getting their wishes granted. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Sides. There are definitely some well-defined sides forming on the Island. Thanks to the Others apparently being mindless lemmings who will follow whatever "godlike" being on the Island is in control, a number have gone to SmokeLocke's side where he promised to take them off the Island with him. Does this mean that they were somewhat "prisoners" on the Island, while under the reign of Jacob? And what's up with Jacob making such strange deals with people? I'll cure your son, Dogen - but only if you stay on this Island forever. It reminded me of the deal that Jacob allegedly made with Juliet (through Ben) - to cure her sister of cancer, but she was never allowed to leave the Island.
What's the lesser of two evils? Killing all sorts of people or keeping people like slaves as part of a crazy bargaining process? Is making a deal with either Jacob or Anti-Jacob the equivalent of making a deal with the devil?
So in one corner, we have SmokeLocke, Sawyer, Claire, Sayid, a handful of Others, and potentially Kate and Jin - who may just be along for the ride.
In the other corner, we have Ilana, Miles, Frank, Sun, and potentially Ben, Hurley, and Jack.
Advantage? I vote the side that kills people and wants to leave the Island.
I'm sure I'm probably missing a ton, but that's all that comes to mind right now. How about this, instead of doing a normal analysis this week, you post questions in the Comments, and I'll answer them - that way I can clean up some of the outstanding stuff I missed in past weeks, and take care of this episode at the same time.
Sound like a deal?
Comment away!
111 comments:
I don’t like to post comments usually… just like to read… but I can’t find any info here the is fresh. I’ve been searching for 5 days. Do you know what this is about…
http://www.globalwelfareconsortium.com/
I am looking for a Lost “pro” to weigh in…
sorry to be first poster!
i dont think anyone mentioned the black and white rocks, the "inside joke" smokelocke talked about to sawyer. Its funny how the balance was tipped towards the black rock....just wondering on your take!
this has probably been stated...but...why did claire not time travel like everyone else?
What's up with Jin tied up in the freezer?
Have you seen my baseball?
You're good....
If SmokeLocke just wants to "go home" as he previously said...what's stopping him from simply doing that now?
Oh....and why is Kate not walking around in a bikini?? ...just curious.
Don't forget in the first five minutes we had probably the best fight sequence we've seen on LOST so far between Sayid and Dogan. That was epic.
A lot has been made about MiB's relationship with Jacob, especially after the young blond boy (most likely a young Jacob) was shown to Flocke in the jungle. With the writers reminding us about Adam and Eve (who carried those black and white rocks), as well as Flocke's scale with a white and black stone, perhaps they are connected. What if Jacob and MiB are brothers, and Adam and Eve were their parents? After shipwrecking, they died after some time, and each boy claimed one of the rocks from one of their parents (metaphorical mainly). Eventually, they developed a Cain and Able type relationship, which would be shown somewhat through flashbacks. Thoughts?
Where is Richard hiding? Sawyer? Don't we still have another group of others somewhere, or are we out of "others" we have already met?
Is it possible that the lighthouse changes the bearing that is needed to travel to in order to enter/exit the island?
Do you think Kate will turn? Not we will have a reunion of Kate and hungover Sawyer on team Smokey, do you think this could be enough to unrecruit Sawyer? On Smokey's team it seems like Sayid and Claire are the only "claimed" ones, do you think that the others could flip flop?
The biggest hole in your deal with the devil idea is that none of the people have had amazing fiddle skills. Although the piano was close :-)
Where do you think the on island stuff is heading? With the temple seemingly out of the picture what is going to be the next key place? FDW? caves? Dharmaville? It just seems like Smokey team is just trying to kill everyone and the other team is disorganized (unless we learn more about Illana) and just trying to stay alive.
crazy episode. Poor Sayid, i think his life is more tragic then Locke.
woah, just got another idea.
Going off what Dogen said to Sayid about his balance being shifted towards evil, i wonder if the scale in the caves was meant to be weighing the different people if they are good or evil. Our 4,8,15,16,23,42 people were shades of gray, not swung either direction so they were candidates to choose their side.
The biggest hole in this theory is Hurley who its hard to see anything wrong with except clumsyness.
Maybe the point if for them to choose their side, and if anyone chooses Jacob that is enough???
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/egypt/anubis.gif
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/egypt/anubis.htm
Reminds me of the joke about the 12" pianist.
SmokeLocke looked surprised when he saw Kate. I wonder if she'll somehow be his undoing.
Surgeon General's Warning! Secondhand SmokeLocke is hazardous to your health.
-- sorry
On a seriously note though, with all this "zombie" business going on. Does this mean a showdown between Jack and Christian? A test of faith or culmination of prophecy or fulfillment of roles akin to what we saw between original Locke and his Dad at the sacrificial columns?
We haven't seen Christian in a while. I always kind of thought he might be a potential "good" wild card, but as it looks he is in the same group as Claire & Sayid? And if the dead want to leave the island to walk the earth; well… that just has apocalypse written all over it.
The observation posted previously that anti-Jacob was never mentioned by name is interesting. Can this mean his real identity may be the "mother of all reveals" in LOST? Brian, please follow-up with your thoughts. Excellent, action-packed episode.
I'm thinking it's working out like this: Dead Jacob wants Jack to take his place as "the protector". Hurley is the conduit for Dead Jacob to work this out. Illana and crew will eventually meet up with Jack's team of Jack, Hurley, Dead Jacob, Illana, Ben, Sun, Lapidus, and I think Alpert will join them.
On the other side is Anti-Jacob, Claire, Sayid, and a bunch of Others, and probably Sawyer (unless he's pulling another long con on AJ)
The wildcards are Miles, Kate, and Jin but I think all 3 (with Sawyer) will go with Dead Jacob/Jack. I think this is everyone left now, right?
So is this the war we've been waiting for? And if so, where's Widmore?
Now for a geeky Star Wars analogy: what if it comes down to Dead Jacob really is Obi Wan (like Hurley said), Jack is Luke, Kate is Leia (captured by the evil Locke Vader), Hurley is C3PO's comic relief. Does that make Desmond Han Solo to come in at the last minute to allow Jack to sink the island/blow up the Death Star?
BTW, I like the idea that the off-island stories are the 'deal with the devil' alternatives. That makes the stories converge with the on-island timeline.
i like the "where is richard" question. also, smokelocke's second take at kate is interesting. maybe jack really is the winning candidate and we do go back to jack vs. locke. and is claire still pissed at kate?
Another question: it would be interesting to trace back the deal with Jin and his trip to LA. He was supposed to deliver a Rolex to someone as a gift from Sun's father. In the on-island timeline, Michael took it and there was a fight but that's all there was to it, right? Crash lead to no Rolex delivery.
But in the time-line where 815 lands, Jin is held in customs when the watch(?) and money was found. Then the next thing we see is he's found by Sayid? That could be an interesting storyline to chase.
Long time reader, [I think] first post...
First of all, that was one of the best episodes of the series, in my opinion.
Secondly, Brian, I like your theory about the alternate reality being the "deal with the devil" story lines. I think we will learn you are spot on, there.
I am wondering how/why Jack and Hurley will choose Jacob over anti-Jacob - isn't Jacked just a little PO'd that Jacob set this whole thing up? I'm not super confident in this idea but maybe they too will go along with the idea that anti-Jacob can give them what they want, etc, and switch sides to defeat Jacob and get off the island.
Loving the sideways flash story! As exciting as the SmokeLocke seen was I'm kinda hoping that's the last of the smoke we see... let's get on to answering some more questions!
Fkn epic..... the last few minutes of that episode was crazy.
This episode answered more questions as opposed to making it crazier for us. Just a few questions though....
Question 1: What will happen to Dogen and Lennon ? Will they get claimed by Smokefacelock or does SmokefaceLock claim who he wants?
Question 2: Could Dogen have killed Sayid. He stopped before the ball even hit the ground ? wierd
Question 3: Did Dogen realy think that knife would kill SmokeLock or did he actually send Sayid on a suicide mission ?
(btw, loved the scene of Sayid stabbing Lock LoL no blood though hehe)
Question 4: Ben knew exactly where the pool room was after Miles said that Sayid was heading there. Has Ben spent some time at the temple ? (apart from getting healed)
(Bens s**t scared look whilst walking backwards after seeing the craziness in Sayids eyes = priceless)
Question 5: Why is Brian so down to Earth cool ?
Isn't it a little strange that Ben was able to kill Jacob by knifing him but Sayid's knifing of SmokeLocke did absolutely nothing? Not even blood on the knife...
Although I have great respect for Brian's analysis, I sure hope we aren't headed for a simplistic O. Henry-style ending (the "deal with the devil that doesn't turn out quite like you hoped" theory).
And can someone remind me what is up with the baseball? Does it have something to do with Jack and his sideways son?
remember when ben was a boy and sayid shot him and they took him to the temple to heal him, but he would never be the same... what side does that put him on? was that when the water was still clear? how does this fit in?
I've never been as "lost" as I was yesterday!
The lack of blood when Sayid stabbed Flocke didn't shock me because it's not a human body. My question is whether Dogan was intentionally trying to get Sayid killed or if he told the truth - could Sayid have killed Flocke if he stabbed him before he spoke?
falcon - the baseball thing is driving me crazy too. Was it just a reminder of Dogan’s life with his son? Or is there something symbolic about a baseball having 108 double stitches and the 2 story lines and 108 being a significant number on Lost?!?!
did anyone see the ORB in last nights episode? right before the attack on the Temple from an outside shot, you can see a little white ORB come into the frame for about 5 secs. Just saying. GREAT episode
The "deal with the devil" theory was exactly what I said after the conversation with Locke and Sayid post-stabbing attempt. It even seems like his niece and nephew like him more than his brother. But the only question to me is why have 2 people's LAX lives been one way and 2 people's been the other. And the choice of which two are the way they are is also interesting:
Sayid - sells soul to AJ = good life with Nadia in it.
Claire - sells soul to AJ but seemily has the same life.
Jack - "should" end up on team jacob and no soul sale = much different life with a kid in it.
Kate - on the fence, but judging by the EEEEVIL ass look she got from Locke when she came out of the temple... I see her being an issue and letting Jack talk her into joining the White team. But regardless... her life seems unchanged from what it would have been.
So two people on each "team" have vastly different lives and two have about the same. This is the only issue i could come up with the "selling soul" theory.
Where the F is little baby richard hiding? Or is he off the island helping someone get there? That is the only thing I can think of...
Drewcipher - I had the same idea about Jacob and AJ being brothers with Adam and Eve as their parents, but I dismissed it since the bodies weren't old enough to have been on the island that long. Unless they lived for a long time like Jacob and AJ. That would make it a possibility.
ab aeterno from the eternal Literally, "from the everlasting" or "from eternity". Thus, "from time immemorial", "since the beginning of time" or "from an infinitely remote time in the past". In theology, often indicates something, such as the universe, that was created outside of time.
Brian, Great analysis as always. I just have a quick question on the deal with the devil theory. My only problem with it is the only way the theory holds true is it means either everyone accepts the deal or no one accepts the deal. You can't have some people who are happy with their current existence (Sun and Jin once they find each other, potentially Kate since she is no longer running from the law) and some people who are unhappy (Claiure and Sayid). I guess I am just looking for a deeper insight to the theory because the way I see it now, it forces a group decision as opposed to a case by case basis. No one can stay on the island if it blows up and on the flip side, lives off the island (as we see from the sideways flash) would be different had one person decided to stay on the island (for example, if Claire makes the deal and Kate did not, Claire wouldn't have Kate to help her when she goes into labor.)
Not sure if this makes any sense. I guess I am just looking for additional insight into how this theory works in your opinion.
I'll be very disappointed if Lost turns out to be nothing more than a "be careful what you wish for, you might get it" warning. I can see how that might develop from what we saw last night, but that would not be a good ending to a show like this.
My question is about the smoke monster:
Prior to this season (and Jacob's death) the smoke moster seemd to be selective in who he went after - killed the pilot, didn't kill Locke. Killed almost the entire French team, let most of the chrash survivors live. He also seemed to be contained by ash and the Dharma security system but was also at Ben's beck and call (through some elaborate summoning routine below his house in Dharmaville) when the freightors threatened the island.
Now Smokey is on a killing rampage!
Is it possible that Jacob used to be Smokey and had all the associated powers, and once he was dead, AJ took over?
And one more question: We've seen Jacob's body in life and after death, but we have not seen the man in black's body since that day on the beach - what happened to his physical body?
Although I'm almost always in agreement with you, Brian, this time time I'm going to say I don't buy the 'deal with the devil' theory. I actually think that theory is more complicated then what the writers will deliver. I had 2 ideas pop in the my head last night & think they have some potential...
First, I think the flash sideways are the set up and/or foreshadowing to the very end of the series... it is the character's lives as if Jacob never existed, as if he never entered their lives at all. The death of Jacob subsequently created this revised reality where all the interference & manipulation Jacob ran never happened (and therefore they never went to the island in the first place). And we find out, despite all the storyline seemingly to the contrary, in the end, the true "good" guy is SmokeLocke/Anti-Jacob (I agree his real name is going to be the big reveal)and his win of the epic battle for the island seals the storyline for the remaining lives of the survivors. His win sinks the island, putting it to death & keeping the true "bad" guy, Jacob's successor from the continued corrupting & manipulating it's powers. SL/AJ made very clear he believed in keeping people AWAY from the island & his win ensures that for eternity.
That brings me to the secondary idea that Widmore is indeed due for his return and his parallel epic battle with Ben (this better happen or I'm pissed). The twist here seems to be (as others have suggested... I'm totally borrowing ideas here)that Ben's actually always been on team SL/AJ but didn't know it. He was being manipulated to keep people AWAY from the island while Widmore always wanted to bring more to it like Jacob. I'm not sure if Widmore knows he's on team Jacob any more then Ben knows he's team SL/AJ.
Before I start to ramble, I'm going to end there maybe to add later. :)
Ann - one question for that theory I have: Why is Jack's appendix gone? They made too much of a point that it got taken out when he was young for it to just be a mute point. Your theory, which many people are accepting as truth at this point, would mean that Jacob dying = Jack getting an appendectomy when he was 7 or 8... that is very very silly to me. Also, Kate and Claire's lives don't seem to be much different at all. So Jacob didn't care about them or what?
"Holy Crap" is right! That's what i said too.
I knew something was up with Dogen, thinking he was not "all good", and figured that there was something/some connection with the baseball. I figured he had a "job" there that he didn't particulary like, but that he had to do. I just figured it a bit wrong. I thought he was all "double agent" like or something worse. LOL
I'm figuring that the lists -lighthouse & Candidate - means there is something those people have to do. There are ways to get crossed off the list...so far i'm figuring either die or do your job, perhaps even consiously make the decision to be on the "bad" side by doing something for that side. Those on the list (at least the Candidates) cannot be killed by SmokeFLocke or Dogen (who's dead now so it doesn't matter anymore).
Once crossed off the list, they are fair game for the taking/claiming of SmokeFLocke.
I don't think Sayid was always claimed (after he died) by the "darkness". He died and resurrected in the Temple, under the protection of Dogen...so i'm thinking that he still had the option.
Are all Candidates unable to kill SmokeFLocke, or it is than no one can? Jacob could be killed, but only by one who was crossed off the list. Hmmm
Anyway, up until the "Temptation" scene, i think he was still fair game. As soon as he walked back into the Temple with the message announcement...the OH $H!# factor came in quickly followed by the "Holy Crap" of Sayid's slayings and the flowing Smoke Monster.
I agree that the flash sideways may very well represent the results of the "deal with the devil", and for sure, be careful what cha wish for...Oh boy. Kinda makes me think of the island as a "limbo" of sorts.
SmokeFLocke's twisted half-truths are quite tricky. No matter who is doing the bargaining, presenting of choices...there is ALWAYS the freewill choice. What needs to get done will still gone done, one way or another.
Jacob left an example in the dialog in "The Lighthouse" episode last week. He said someone was coming. Hurley was concerned that since the lighthouse mirrors were broken, they wouldn't be able to find their way. Well, if something is supposed to happen, it will...eventually...one way or another. He said, "They'll have to find another way." Now, he may know they don't need that lighthouse to find the island, but that's not the point.
With all the metaphors and allegorical references in this show, it just goes back to destiny and freewill. It also seems to point to the idea that everyone has certain things to learn or stages of growth to go through while living. One way or another they WILL get there, that is the Destiny part. The Freewill comes in as to how/where/with whom those experiences occur...depending on the choices that are made.
Certain "souls" may be destined to cross paths and influence others no matter what how/where variables change.
Regardless of perspective, good/bad...it all works out for the benefit of each and perfect balance, overall "big picture" of good. The end justifies the means? It's really hard to see when so localized in the perspective of seeing the "bad".
We are still missing Michael and Walt in flashsideways. Can't wait for that.
Widmore & Penny & Desmond....another similar life, with Desmond having issues with Widmore.
What about Ben's dad? Ecko, Lucia...still open, although hard to answer when the actors aren't coming back, or so we think.
What about the couple that got buried alive? How did Juliet KNOW it worked? Great episode last night.
On a different note, how about the actors portraying Locke and Claire? Claire's crazy look at Kate was great! and we can tell its AntiLocke just by looking at the actor! fantastic job!
I'm a huge fan of your blog and have been an avid reader for many years now. This is my first post! I know that this was previously analyzed to death but this episode reminded me of the Lost "Last Supper" promo pics. Yes, I know that there are different versions but do you think they were a precursor to the two sides? Check it out: http://www.mania.com/lost-last-supper-promos_article_119748.html
whoa! please, no one take my random theory as truth (as suggested by another). they are just that - totally random, but at the same time, different then Brian's theories.
I don't think the mention of Jack's appendectomy was moot (not mute) point. I think it was a clue... a clue we're not necessarily going to realize until the show is wrapping up... when we start having those 'a-ha moments' (sorry for the Oprah reference). They were tipping us off that now that Jacob is dead/never existed, Jack's scar comes from a routine childhood procedure & not a livesaving island operation... becaus he was never on the island!
I think how Kate & Claire's lives play out is a result of what would have happened to them regardless of Jacob... and sometimes those lives don't turn out rosey like Jack & his seriously awkward relationship with his son.
I know there are holes in my theory, but I feel good about it & am willing to stick with it (loosely) until the end. :)
I tried posting a link to that pic yesterday and got no response from anyone Tracey...
I doubt their placement has to do with "teams" purely b/c sayid and claire are on the same side as Ilana and Richard IMO, but i could be wrong. I do think there is significance in Locke being in Jesus's spot, Kate in Mary Magdalens, Sayid in Judas's and the fact that sawyer and jack are on opposite sides of Locke.
Yea Ann I have trouble accepting any theory out there just b/c 99% of them are wrong, but the "if jacob never existed" one is very popular at the moment, and was the one I supported after last week's episode, although I caught a lot of flak from my friends for throwing it out there. After the Sayid and FLocke convo last night I got on the "Deal with the devil" theory train for the time being, which it seems like Brian has semi-endorsed that theory for now so that's encouraging.
In the end we're all gonna be wrong probably. But the ride is run.
I don't know if this was addressed already, but why did Jacob tell Hurley it was so important to have Sayid brought back to life? Did Jacob not know Sayid would be claimed by FLocke? Or, to use a Christian analogy, is it the equivalent of Jesus walking to his death and allowing Judas to betray him, knowing that setting everything in motion would bring the salvation of humanity?
Ok, i can see the Sayid/Judas metaphor, but i just don't see the SmokeFLocke/Jesus one...he seems more like the Satan to me. Did we not just see the "Temptation" scene where he offered Sayid the world? Or am i just falling for a fake TOO obvious, symbolic reference?
I can see the "if Jacob never interfered" or the "deal with the devil" scenario being the flash sideways...either way, still the "butterfly effect" free choice.
I agree that Ben may be with "team AJ/FL" and just not know it....but then i was wrong before, and he just may seem "bad" when the end result of his "badness" is for the overall good. I mean, hey, Jacob didn't even put up a fight when Ben killed him, did he? It almost seems like he knew it was coming...or even let it happen for a reason....hmmmm.
I think at death Juliet saw everything clearly. She saw everything as it really IS, not only as each see it locally. She knew that "it worked."
Oh, and for the rest of the people someone mentioned...perhaps that's who Jacob is talking about that are coming to the island. Maybe Desmond, Aaron et al.
Oh, so, Jin in the cooler...those guys that Sayid killed put him there right? And anyone else thinking those guys might work for Sun's dad?
Lisa, I meant to imply that Jacob was the equivalent of Jesus. It's not a perfect analogy, but if one assumes Jacob is a know all/see all, he may be thinking that the purging of the Others is necessary to bring about a greater good?
Luke, I agree...to an extent. I see Jacob as more of the "god" image rather than the savior/son.
I think someone else said something else about FLocke being in the place of Jesus, but i don't/didn't agree.
However....after having looked at the "Last Supper" image of the LOST cast and thinking, "WFT?" It dawned on me. It's not FLocke...it's the resurrected Locke..."The one who lies in the shadow of the statue." Since his body is now buried there and the answer to the question is "the one who will save us all."
There is a scripture that says something to the effect of...Even an angel of darkness can look like one of light. It seems that's exactly what SmokeFLocke has done here. But in the end...the real one will be resurrected and save them. I hope i'm right about this one! :oD
Where do you think Sawyer is? As for Richard, he was shown previously hiding in the jungle. Can't wait to learn more about Richard and Dalton promised they would do.
I understand the Christian metephors to help comprehend, but I don't like them as metaphors what what is actually happening in the show. These metaphors are no more part of the show storyline than the Star Wars metaphor,. This isn't Star Wars and it's not Christianity, it's LOST.
Good vs Evil is often in the eye of the beholder. Smokey sees himself as the 'black' but does that mean he sees himself as evil? Is Jacob really good? or just wearing white? His deals to Dogon and Juliet are no less cruel than the idea of giving Sayid nadia but not being able to have her. They were bribed into service.
I think about the Sayid/Dogen discussion before the murder by Sayid. "I assume he made you a similar offer". I will say this, the way Sayid attacked both Dogon and Lennon was like shooting someonein the back. It showed no honor whatsoever. Granted, Dogen tried the same thing with Sayid earlier.
One last comment: by torturing, poisoning(attempt), expeling, then potentially setting Sayid up to die, he did more to create the evil Sayid as Flocke did to turn him. Nothing that Dogen did was any more ethical than what Sayid did in turn to Dogen.
Point is, Dogen doesn't kill because of the issue with his son just like sideways sayid wouldn't marry Nadia, but they're not really that much different.
People aren't mentioning.. why is it that Dogen needs to be alive for the ashe to protect the temple?
My theory is that Sayid is going to repent for his past. He killed Dogen and Lennon in the pool. They will come back to life. He will be smokelocke downfall. Sayid is the likely person with his training to outfox smokie.
Sawyer's probably still trying to figure out how to get out of the cave!
I can just imagine how P.O'd he was when SmokeFLocke turned into smoke and just flowed out and up to the top of the cliff without him. Good thing there were no mirrors in there! Probably no alcohol either...bummer for him.
Ok, so will he jump in the water or try to climb up the side of the cliff with what's left of the ladder and hope there's something to hang on to get up to the top?
OR...is there some other alternative to where he could be or how he got out since the ladder is broken?
I completely agree, Steve. I'm certain they aren't trying to use the account of Jesus as a way to play out the plot. I'm just trying to get a grasp as to why Jacob would think it imperative that Sayid be brought to the Others and saved.
Lisa - your FLocke / Locke theory is very well thought out and clever. Props to you for that one.
Jack - Who is "Dalton"???
Steve - I don't think everyone is literally thinking that Lost is a big biblical story retold, I just think they are using different stories from the Bible as a basis for comparing what is/might happen next in a way other people can understand.
The main reason i use Christian references is because that is what most people in America recognize and are most familiar with...it's the easiest metaphor to use. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone by using them.
There are WAY more other metaphoric references there than just Christian, but you will find that all of the same basic principles intertwine. They hit on just about every culture and religion from Sumerian/Egypt times all the way to modern Christianity. Buddhism to New Age-ish stuff...it's all there...if you know what to look for.
The symbolism is just in your face all over the place. But alas, most people are most familiar with Christianity and so the metaphor is easy to use and easily understood. Certainly not meant as a bias nor to offend.
noemailformeadows...Thanks, but i can't take all the props for that one. I read somewhere...someone pointed out that Locke is buried "in the shadow of" the statue and i just put the pieces together.
Great article here with some solid analysis:
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20348187,00.html
takes notice of similarities with last night's episode and sayid's previous episodes
So the only thing we're missing is the alien aspect, right?
So, then allow me...hehehe. The island is an alien ship or some sort of portal they made. It was floating via the electromagnetical power til some dumb@$$es blew it up.
All of our [minor] gods are really just aliens. I mean, geeez, if you were a hunter/gatherer type that only knew of fire and stone weapons tied to sticks and saw some beings come down out of the sky...what would you think?
These folks come and teach you all kinds of things...agriculture, math, science, things about the stars...they are gods!!!! And then, every once in a while, some come back and deliver messages or get you out of a tough bind...must be angels.
What else could they be? Certainly we are the only intelligent beings in the universe...i mean there are no other planets or galaxies, right? And certainly we know everything there is to possibly know? Everything else out there is just flaming gas n rocks, right? So, just us and our earth...and sky spirits...no other physical beings. We are just that arrogant. We are the best and all that there is, right? LOL
Sorry, won't buy the alien theory. As much as the writers play to the bloggers' theories, the big reveal/explanation has to be mainstream enough for most people to understand/enjoy.
Didn't know there was an "alien theory". LOL Just knew that that is the only thing that hasn't been obviously symbolized...only sorta, almost, indirectly. LOL I was just being droll.
However, as far as being mainstream enough for most to understand/enjoy...not so sure. Latest polls/statistics show that the majority of people believe in UFOs and/or ETs. To what extent? I don't know. Enough to put much into the LOST series? Probably not.
Just the suggestion or symbolism of anything Sumerian would be enough. That's about as far as i can see the writers going with that [alien/ufo/ET] thing.
noemailformeadows....
Dalton = Damon Lindeloff + Carlton Cuse (sp?)....main partners of exec producing team of LOST!
A resurrected real Locke and smokelocke would bring us the "evil twin" scenario...
And I still feel there may be a Narnian reference to Jacob letting himself be killed knowing that it was a part of the plan/deeper magic. Similar to the Christianity ideas, etc. and I believe the story was referenced.
Oh my bad Jack. I was caught on the Richard in that sentence = Dalton was a character on the show that I had missed somehow...
Damon prefers DamCar to Darlton. Equal number of letters. ;)
Sayid needed to be saved because he was a Candidate.
However, this was a failure...
Note that TSM lies... he's still telling Claire that the others had her baby. Why not tell a lie to Sayid? I would say that Sayid is the leading canidate to become smokey. On the island, there is the 'magic box' why not conjure a Nadia? I think Lockes dad was kidnapped and brought to the island, but could paralell Nadia do the same? This is really starting to sound like fringe where a characters son was brought from a parallel universe to replace his dead 5 year old son.
Both shows are Abrams..
Also.. could the Island actually be a doorway between worlds?
OK.. I'll play...
By definition, Jesus is God incarnate, fully man, fully God.
Therefore, to say Jacob is like Jesus, he would be "God" in a human form(I say it, but I still don't get it).
I see the anology of dying, but I don't see a resurrection here... more like a ghost... and to select people. This is more like Star Wars.
To quote Obi-Won "you can't win Darth, if you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could ever imagine" That whole jacob killing scene reeks of this scene, he even disappears in the fire like a Jedi.
But as I said earlier, this is in fun as there is no real point in drawing these comparisons. Why do we have to draw comparisons to other stories that we've all seen before? It fun, but it distracts us from finding what's really going on... as if we stand a chance. Wait, didn't I compare all this to Fringe earlier? OK.. guilty.
LMAO....it's just human nature...trying to make sense of things, using things we know in comparison, anthropomorphizing to bring things down to our level and make them "real" to us. This is all we understand. Our brains are programmed to run on only 5 senses so we need everything to fit nice and neat into those little boxes.
Anything outside those boxes we don't understand or just don't think exist.
"As above, so below. As below, so above."
Was anyone else totally convinced that Miles was toast when he got separated from Kate at the Temple. I was saying my goodbyes to him until Ilana busted through that door. Glad they let him stick around a while longer.
I don't really have a question right now, I'm still trying to take in all that awesomeness that happened. I just wanted to say that I'm glad Dogen is gone, but the way the writers did that, with his telling the story about his son, and then being dead about a minute later, was bleeping awesome.
I veer between hoping there is some deep spiritual/mystical explanation at the end of this road, hoping there is not going to be some hokey sci-fi-ish explanation (a la Life on Mars), and enjoying being completely baffled as to where this is all heading.
And as timcourtois said, I was so happy Miles didn't get wiped out by sir smokes a lot - we need more of his comic relief, now that Hurley seems to be getting a more serious role.
Finally, I'm still wondering about the baseball - it was suggested that it is tied to Dogen's son (car crash after baseball practice) but I'm hoping there is more to it.
When Dogen learned that Jacob is dead, he made a protection circle around the temple with ashes. But even Dogen was killed, how could SmokeLocke went through the ash circle and got into the temple?
By the way, I'm wondering what would happen if Sayid would cut off SmokeLocke's head instead of stabbing him :D
Kinda makes ya wonder if the ash circle was just a smoke screen after all, eh? tee hehe.
I mean, it ended up being Dogen that was keeping Smokey out and protecting the place. So what real use is the black ash? Does it have to be "blessed" like holy water or something?
Speaking of Dogen, his name rung a bell and it came to me last week as to why. Not really sure if there is any symbolic connection or if its just a coincidence...hmm, not sure if there is such a thing...but since someone Freudian slipped on the spelling, i'm gonna mention it.
A while back while doing some research on gods, i came across the Dogon people. Check it out. Their relation to Sumerian/Egyptian ancestors, the Nammo god(s), etc. Pretty interesting stuff. Oh, and for those who like the "alien theory"...enter Twilight Zone music...the Sirius connection.
I don't think there is anything more to the baseball than a reminder to Dogen of why he was on the island in the first place.
I don't know if this was already mentioned here but... Wasn´t Sayid talking about Shannon when he said that the one thing he wanted died in his arms (season 2, after gunshot by Ana Lucia)??
Nadia didn't even come into my mind because, in the our survivors 'reality', Sayid was going to LA to meet her, after knowing of her whereabouts in Sidney, right? She never died.
And SmokeLocke can indeed deliver that promise of Shannon quite easily because, she is dead. And who can revive the dead on that island?
Good catch on the Shannon/Nadia reference. But I thought Nadia died in his arms after he got off the island - that is how Ben coerced him into killing all those people for him... Didn't she die when she was hit by a car because Jacob asked Sayid for directions?
Yes Dinner Doula, you are quite right. Now that you mention it, she did died when Sayd got out of the island. Ben reached Sayid at her funeral, I believe.
That being said, now I don't really know if it was Shannon or Nadia that Sayid was talking about. :)
I was happIER this episode, finally some action that really furthers a plot line.
I think one side of this is lining up for Jack to take over as Jacob. I think Sawyer takes over for Smock. Enter episode "Who Doesn't Kate Do?"
I think the other side, 'it worked.' But, like the deal with the devil thing, not as they would've liked.
If anything happens to Ben I will freak out. They said he's in peril in the trailer, but I doubt it for real. He's Smock's beeatch now.
I guess Jin didn't get his 10 grand back.
Laura - Michael Emmerson (Ben) was on Jimmy Kimmel a week or so ago and said his character was still alive with 4 episodes left to go. But we all know Ben is a liar so he may have been messing around.
Dogen said to Sayid that his scale tipped the wrong way. He DIDN'T say that it tipped to the good or the bad, just the wrong way. I don't think we still know which side is good and which side is bad.
The ashes apparently did nothing with Dogen out of the picture.
Lennon said to Sayid: Do you know what you've done? he's the only one keeping 'him' out!
To which Sayid responded: "I know" and slit his throat.
So apparently the ash is only effective if Dogen is there to activate it.
Dogon is named after a famous japanese person. Apparently, he died on september 22nd, which is a cooincidense. Darlton confirmed the name sourse buy denied having anything to do with his death.
What is up with Cindy and the kids? They were with the Dharmites, then the hippie others at the temple, and are now on walkaabout with sir-smokes-a-locke. Will we ever find out what happened to them after the 815 crash, why Cindy so quickly became a trusted Dharmite, why the Dharmites wanted the kids, etc.? Or will these be among the many questions that are not likely to be neatly tied up by the end of the series?
Cindy & Company weren't ever D.I. they've been Others since they got taken. Early in season 3 you see them at the Others place when Jack is locked in the polar bear cage. While all the time-travel and Dharma 1977 stuff is goin on, Cindy and the Kids are hangin at the temple in 2004-2007 with the rest of the others
Two more questions:
We know about the ship called the "Black Rock", and now the black rock on the scale is in control. Any chance there is some vessel know as the "White Rock" out there somewhere?
Also, Claire didn't see AJ as Locke but as her "friend". Dogen says that he appears as "someone you know who has died". Let's see, who was Claire's best friend who died...? hmmm?
Any chance we see him again?
I don't follow where you're going with this one dave. Dogen meant that Smokey will be in a body of somebody you know... He wasn't implying that Smokes looks different to everybody that sees him. He looks like Locke to everybody.
I assume you're talking about Charlie in your post though - which reminds me:
Was anyone else ready and waiting for when Jack asked his son who he was listening to for his son to say "Yoooou ALLLL Everybodyyyy! Yooouuu Alllll everyboddyyyyyy!"
haha I know I sure as hell was. Kinda let down when he didn't
Another question:
I don't know if this has been addressed, but is there an explanation yet as to the appearance of Claire (to Kate) and Jack's dad (to Jack) when they were off-island?
I wouldn't think it was anti-Jacob, since (as I understand it) he is "trapped" in the island. It would make sense, though, since Claire begged Kate not to take Aaron back (assuming he is in fact still special and will affect anti-Jacob's plan).
Or are we supposed to just chalk it up to hallucinations/crazy island mystery?
Christian Shephard is a wildcard at this point. He appeared to Michael right before he died on the freighter also. He's definitely not Smokey and definitely not Jacob. There's gotta be another player in this game they're not telling us about. Game has gone from 2-player Backgammon to either 3-player Risk or Chinese Checkers
I have a feeling that if Adam and Eve are 815 survivors, they are Rose and Bernard...they were the only ones who decided to let things be and just live on the island. Maybe they represent what everyone should be doing, and just enjoying the island for what it is
Definitely a possibility but they will have a difficult time explaining to everyone how Rose and Bernard's skeletons are in the caves while Rose and Bernard are living on the island. Also, Rose is in the flash-sideways world... so wouldn't that mean she chooses the same fate as everyone else we've seen in LAX-land?
I'm wondering what the hell happened to all the Dharma talk? We spend 5 seasons learning and theorizing abou them and now no mention of them at all? They played a major part in getting everyone back to the island (lampost station), among other things. There has to be something more to Dharma, right?
See Dharma Initiative genocide by Ben Linus and company.... they are all dead
great point Dave Harty,
some how i never put the obvious pieces together of the ship being called the "black rock", i can't help but think that we are going to get more into its history. Maybe find out Hanso. Since he was hinted at as being important...
As for who's coming to the island, i say another plane crash... just bring back another cart load of people, that way you could get widmore, Faraday (who worked for widmore on freighter), Desmond (who is in love with), Penny (midmore's daughter), and some how throw in michael and Walt. I say bring the whole gang back. I could easily see the person who is coming to the island to be widmore since we know he has been trying hard to find the island all along. How great would it be to see Ben and Widmore on the same side...
Also, what can hurt/kill smokey? so far we know ash works/or at least use to, the Dharma sonic fence works, and apparently Jacob somehow kept him in line. He has been called the island security system. So if knifes/bullets don't work on him, what would? Maybe the bag of Jacob's ash Illana has?
1. did you catch any inconsistencies in the story-telling? i mean, did anything happened in the show that contradicts what has shown or told before? if yes, what are they?
2. it think, before, back in season one, two or three, partially four; story-telling was pure genius. there was a big scheme of things that we were not aware of. we were wondering and trying to figure out what this big picture was. Also, writers were quite successful to manage such complexity, hundreds details, connections, variations, etc. But now, all i can see is a simple, one-dimensional story, that is built upon its former legendary background. What i want to say is this: now, writers can easily show a "deus ex machina" nowadays.
- we need to get out of the temple.
- well, there is a secret passage somewhere here.
- how we did not see that lighthouse?
- well, we didn't look correctly.
etc. i think we can find tons of examples.
any way, here is the questions: what do you think about that? if you do not think so, please enlighten me, because i am not exactly satisfied with what i watch recently.
thanks.
Noemailformeadows - you're absolutely right, Cindy and the kids were never Dharmites - my mistake there. To speak more impeccably, I should have said "Others living in Dharmaville." With that, I'm still wondering if we will ever learn more about that trio, why Cindy integrated so easily into the Dharmaville and Temple-dwelling Others, etc.
Didn't Claire go into the temple to get her son? And then she just left with SmokeLocke without even looking for him?
gocklemez: I agree that the current story telling does not seem to be of the same caliber as in the 1st and 2nd seasons. Back then, the flashbacks were exquisitely crafted—they are what hooked me on the show. As the characters were geting to know each other on the Island, we learned thru the flashbacks about the things that people DON'T tell each other when they're getting to know each other.
The flash sideways often seem to take a long time to set up the really meaningful exchanges, like when Jack tells his son “In my eyes, you can never fail,” or Helen tells Locke, “You are all I was ever waiting for.” Of course it may just be that we now know a lot about these characters and so new scenes about them no longer seem so significant. Still, these flashes seem ok, but they aren’t great. Maybe they will become more interesting as we go on—I think our characters in LA X are going to become increasingly interconnected.
The Lighthouse did seem very much a deus ex machina.
Dave Harty—very interesting point about Claire. She didn't even LOOK for Aaron, apparently--just asked SmokeLocke to promise that he would get her son back. Doesn’t bode well for Jin, who was claiming that he could help her sneak into the temple and get Aaron. Maybe Jin is tied up in a kitchen in LA and also tied up somewhere on the Island.
I do get the feeling that Claire is very much under the sway of "her friend."
Question: How come Dogen says Claire is a "confused girl" but Sayid is evil, when he said the same thing happened to both of them? SmokeLocke's personal contact with and influence over "the claimed" may be very important.
I would LOVE to see "the Real John Locke" come back and kick SmokeLocke's butt.
Any thoughts on how Illana knows so much about everything on the Island? Any interpretations on the symbols she was looking at on the walls in the temple? Some posts suggest she could be Jacob's daughter. Even so, I wonder if we'll get any backstory on her to explain how she is so up to speed on everything on the Island. She's turning out to be an awesome character despite us not knowing much about her.
Yea I was talking about that last night with my roommate Jack.
I dunno about Jacob's daughter, but she has to have been on the island before. Jacobs visit to her in the hospital had to have been a while ago - before Whidmore started putting his team of people together. Her little "henchmen" that got killed my SLocke scooped Miles up in a van off the street one day and were all "you're gonna join the wrong team, join us, etc etc" = why I think Whidmore can't be who Jacob is saying "is coming" b/c Whidmore's team is apparently the "wrong team" if you're on team-Jacob like Ilana is. But she knows the island, she knows the temple, she knew where the secret passage was... She's been to the island before.
Really looking forward to a scene with her that lasts longer than 45 seconds........ we could get some really crucial info from that woman
One thing that I had forgot about, and it came back to me recently:
How crucial is the scene with the outrigger/boat/canoe/thing going to be?
Do you guys remember that? Our survivors on island were flashing in time, headed to the Orchid, and got chased by boat and shot at. Then, Juliet shot back at them, and I suspect hit someone in the boat behind them.
They still haven't addressed that scene from the present day perspective, and the longer they wait to show it the more important it becomes.
It may kill a candidate for all we know.
What do you think about that Brian? When do you think that will happen, and what speculation do you have on that?
i really like the idea that the off island story is the result of the outcome of the events we are seeing unfold on the island now. i'm not ready to say it's a "deal with the devil" or that it is what transpires if Jacob never tampered with their lives.
this is sort of off subject, but i thought it was an interesting find re "black rock" and a magnetic island:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupes_Nigra
hey DavidJones...great memory. I had completely forgot about that scene. I hate to say this but wouldn't be surprised if C&L NEVER get back to explaining this in the current season. All told, perhaps it was a (cheap) plot device of sorts to show some action with no real meaning or significance and nothing more than a red herring.
Davidjones,
Wouldn't it be ironic if they do touch on that and it ends up that Juliet shoots sawyer?
They would have had to flash to the future for this to happen though.
Maybe they are chasing Juliet and "time flashers" because Sawyer sees her.
I'm sure I'm way late on participating here but I'll ask anyways. Not sure if this has been asked yet but...
Which deceased characters from past seasons do you think will reappear in upcoming episodes as being on AJ's crew, aka: team zombie?
I was thinking about this today and right now we know of possibly four: Claire (more then likely died in explosion), Sayid, Christian & Alex.
Other "non-buried" possibilities: Charlie, Roger Linus, Keamy, Omar, Rousseau, Karl, Charlotte, Ethan, Naomi, pieces of Artz.....
With all the time flashes, I never really got a good idea of how things happened chronologically, could someone please try explaining it?
Sherilyn--go to lostpedia.com--you can look up anything there. As I recall, they have character "biographies" with events listed in the chronological order in which they occurred, no matter when the scenes appeared in the show. I expect they have timelines for the entire show, too.
we would explain it chronologically, except we still don't know a whole lot. And chronologically according to who? The island or the survivors? We don't know the exact order either... here is a fast stab at a guess...
-Saw statue holding Ankh
-Black rock coming to island with Jacob & MIB on beach
-others on island with young widmore & Faraday mom... Jughead gets there. Richard there
-Faraday tells others to bury jughead
-Rouseau comes to island with team... shoots them.
--1974-77 where Dharma is there & all last season of Dharma ville... somewhere in there Ben is shot by Sayid & taken to temple
-Jughead exploded??? (stuff changes) don't know what now
-Ben kills Dharma folks (maybe next if before)
-Desmond shipwrecks on island, starts pushing button
-Our survivors crash on island... Calamity Ensues.
that is all i got. I spent about 5 minuts thinking this through so it is inevitably wrong. We don't really know some of the order and with time travel we really don't know what's valid now with the changes.
Brian - Why did Richard tell Locke that the only way to save the Island is to get those who left back and in order to do that, Locke was told that he would have to die. Why would Richard do that if he works for Jacob? And how does Richard know this? Think we will see that scene soon?
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