Wednesday, March 25, 2009

"He's Our You" Instant Reactions!

Brian's Three Word Review with Punctuation: Whatever happened, happened?

After a pretty slow first fifty-seven minutes, Lost got way crazy in its final three. I mean, the one fundamental rule we've been using to explain this season has been Faraday's adage of "whatever happened, happened" - which means that Benjamin Linus grows up to lead the Purge, mess with our Survivors, bring them back to the Island, and creep us all out. Doesn't Sayid shooting him totally break that rule? And didn't we all (and by "we all", I mean "I") think this would mean the space-time continuum would tear apart and it would bring about the end of the world... and couldn't only the "special ones" like Faraday or Desmond carry out such actions? GREAT SCOTT!


It would mean all these things... if Ben was really dead. But there's no way that Ben is REALLY dead. Or even if he is, he's coming back to life next episode, a la Locke when Ben shot him (or when he came back to the Island). 

Want a reason for why the Others were willing to accept Ben as their leader even though he was an enemy "Dharma"? How about the fact that he survived a deadly gunshot thanks to fate / whatever happened, happened. But they don't know that. All they know is that he's pretty "special"... kinda in the same way that John Locke is special since he foretold his arrival to the Island 50 years before it happened. What if the Others have foolishly picked two incorrect leaders thanks to these wacky time travel adventures of our Survivors?! No wonder they're falling out of favor with the Island, unable to have babies, and Jacob asked for help!

I can guarantee that this is going to be the primary discussion point for this episode. Some will argue that Faraday was wrong and that you can change the past, which will spawn discussions about how they can now save Charlie / Boone / Shannon, prevent the Purge, save the cheerleader, save the world, and all live happily ever after... but just trust me when I say there is no way that this will happen. The Lost writers seems smart enough to know that this is an EXTREMELY slippery slope to start heading down, and have been beating us over the head with the "whatever happened, happened" stuff from the start - to reassure us that they won't go this route.

Again, the discussions are inevitable - but just trust me that you can't change the past.

The other discussion items from the episode are a little less glamorous than the first:

  • The book that Young Ben gave Sayid was "Separate Reality: Further Conversations with Don Juan" by Carlos Castaneda. It's about a young anthropologist living with a Yaqui Indian's world of "non-ordinary reality" and the difficult and dangerous road a man must travel to become "a man of knowledge", full of hallucinogenic drugs. See the relevancy to this episode? 
  • Ben seemed to confirm that The Economist = Widmore, even though there are still some logical holes in the episode "The Economist" because of this. However, it does make things a little easier, since we know there are just two "big players" in the battle for the Island - Ben and Widmore - not three, including a mysterious third party that we haven't met yet.
  • Is it possible that Dharma started their whole "time travel" kick thanks to Sayid telling them that he was from the future? Is the Swan Station named the Swan Station thanks to Sayid? Fun stuff to think about... except for when it makes your head hurt.
  • She could just be a good liar - or unknowing pawn in Ben's schemes - but for now Ilana seems to be an innocent bounty hunter, not a former Other / off-Island henchman for Ben. So it was just fate that Sayid ended up on Ajira 316 (unless Ben paid her off, pretending to be the family for one of Sayid's victims... which would make some sense since Guam and The Seychelles are nowhere near each other).

...and I think that's about it. Like I said, not a whole lot to this episode aside from the final scene. I'm still worried about Sayid's chances for survival on the Island since in one episode, they basically filled in every gap in his storyline, and Sayid seems to think that he just completed "his mission" in returning to the Island in killing Ben. Of course he's wrong, but his character doesn't know that.

Okay - discuss!


Anonymous said...

I think the island will bring him back like Locke because he has "work" to do...

Prachi said...

Ben is definitely still alive. The island heals him/brings him back to life. Whatever happened, happened. Although, it's interesting to think about when Sayid is torturing Ben, he must remember being shot by him. Mindblowing...

I don't see Sayid joining the hostiles and he won't have a chance of survival within Dharma (especially since he pissed off both Sawyer and Jin). I'm still hoping he's somehow kept alive!

BloodyGamebreak said...

I don't see Sayid dying. There's plenty we can learn from his character now that he's not Dharma. In that respect, he's much more valuable to the audience than, say, Hurley.

glf said...

He's alive I bet - he'll go on and on (sorry just a wee bit tired of Ben, Ben and not much else - yes know he's a great character yadayada).

But I will SCREAM if when Lost ends we find out it's just all been about Ben avenging whatever.
(Thanks just had to vent that one.)

Great Instant Reaction Brian, how do you do it - you're a star as always.

Unknown said...

Hurley is not valuable. He's just comic relief because of his lardassness.

LovelyBunnyRabbit said...

I think that either the island will heal Ben, the hostiles will heal Ben, or somehow that wasn't really Ben. Maybe Ben in the future is a guy who took on the identity of the young Ben... But more likely it will be the island. I just don't get why he had to go and hurt Jin like that. Jin was trying to help.
Plus, Kate and Sawyer is so tired at this point. They only knew each other for 100 days, really didn't spend a lot of quality time together except when they were in the bear cages. At this point he and blondie know each other much better and have been together much longer. What I want to know is what happened to Aaron?!

glf said...

PS. Isn't the other 'time' fundamental - COURSE CORRECTION? Is this what's going to occur hereon?

timcourtois said...

If they resurrect little boy Ben with a "oh, the island healed him" thing, or "oh, he was wearing kevlar"... that will be totally lame. If that happens, then what was the point of this episode? Then why don't they just end EVERY episode with somebody getting shot, and then we find out the next episode, "just kidding!". They've done this too many times already. Let the kid be dead!

Stef said...

Totally love your theories on what will happen to little Ben next.

And yep, I'm putting Sayid on death watch. It pains me to think about it, but it's starting to feel like his work here is done.

Batchout said...

Sayid shoulda shot Ben twice in the base of the skull, and buried him deep-- if he realy meant to kill the special bastard! At least it wasn't another Kidney Shot. The island for continuity's sake does not want Ben to Die YET - He's not an evil murderous bastard, yet, his dad just gives him more daddy issues until he snaps (free to kill)

TheycallmeVic said...

Amazing job with the episode preview Brian, you nailed pretty much every theory.

Sayid didn't name the Swan though, Radzindsky (spell?) said "see, he knows what we're naming it!" or something to that effect.

"Save the cheerleader" lol, are you a Heroes fan as well?

Andre said...

I thought the same thing about this making Ben "special."

I wonder if we'll get to see the reactions of the Sawyer/Juliet/Jin/Miles whne they first meet little Ben. Perhaps they're discuss the possibility of killing him and Daniel will explain why he can't die yet... I want more Faraday stoy-lines soon.

mark said...

i agree with brian, and was expecting a bit more meat this episode. more "holy crap, i didn't see THAT coming..." kind of moments. and while the ending was definitely interesting, i was not surprised at all.

i do have a few questions though:

what happened to miles this episode? his character seems relegated to the background this season, where it seemed like we would be learning a lot more about him and he would be playing a much more pivotal role. especially considering, and if, he is pierre chang's son, and the entire season started with him...

where is mikhail? shouldn't he be on the island by now?

brian, i have to disagree with your statement about sayid, and i agree with gamebreak. i don't think we need to worry about him going anywhere, even though from a storytelling perspective it seems like he doesn't have anything left to "do", there's a lot of possibilities. for example, if ben isn't dead and the island heals him like so many people seem to expect, can you imagine sayid's reaction? and do you really think sayid's going to give up so easily??

Steve said...

Quick comments:

Illena(or whatever the Bounty Hunters name) is lilely working for Widmore. Remember, Widmore told Locke that he had to get everyone back to the island and he would do everything in his power to make it happen. Who is better to supply the information and money to his former employees family? As Ben said, if I can find you, so can Widmore. It see,s that they're almost working togethter on this. And what's better for Widmore than having a spy on the island. And he has a connection with ellie hawkings so he would also know the flight.

Second: I agree with Brian 100%. Ben is not dead.... Why do you think Ben would want them all back so much... because when Sayid shoots him, it gets him in with the Others. Think about it, we know that despite the staff(which hasn't been mentioned yet?) that they don't seem to have much in the way of Doctors... Who delivered Ethan? Juliet the Mechanic? Will they need to get Jack involved with this? Seriously... what's the possibility that our suvivors may want to change the future by letting him die and letting the island intervine? Shoot, whatever happened happened.. right? Think about it... Richard told Ben to be patient... just as Ben told Sayid to be patient. Sayid was going to be killed, but ben stepped in as Sayid was patient... what's to say that when it looks like Ben will be die that the the island/Richard won't step it? The irony runs too deep. It's all in the writing. Or maybe I'm trying too hard to find patterns the writing of the show that's not there.

And I think I am... a guy in an elevator today at work asked me if I was getting 'lost' tonight. Apparently, this guy was in a cube on the other row behind a friend of mine back in season 2. We used to talk lost and speculate, but this guy move away after season 3. Apparently our talks got him to tune into the show. And I'm not the 'LOST' guy in his mind. Is this a sign you're over the top?

Steve said...

Let me clarify on Illana...

She either

- Is working for Widmore and will be his woman on the island

- She honestly thinks she's working for the family of the man who Sayid killed on the Golf course... who are supported by Widmore.

Either way, I'm convinced that Sayid being on that plane is Widmore. Remember, he didn't want Ben dead... he wanted him removedfrom the island. If Sayid is NOT on the plane, then Ben doesn't get shot and doesn't take over the 'others'. While it might seem this is what widmore wants,. Widmore knows that if this doesn't happen, then it will be disasterous to time/space.

I know.... it's destiny, they were on the island in the 70's so they had to get back to the island. And while this IS true, it had to happen by a course of action by someone, Widmore, Ben, and even Sayid's actions may look like free will, but every last bit of it is 'predestined".

In other words, to get the o6 back to the island is Destiny, but the tools of destiny are Ben and Widmore... and in this insance, for the fate of time and space, they are working together.

No, the battle between Ben and Widmore will take place in 2007, not in 1977. (and yes, it is 2007 as they said '30 years earier' not 31).

Steve said...

Concderning Sayid.. I honestly don't see a purpose... From what I can see, shooting Ben was his purpose as Michaels was in blowing up the boat. The only thing that can save him is if he is needed in 2007.

Now here is what bothers me about lost. From everyhing I see, there is no free will. Faraday called it a needle on arecord, but a record was pre-recorded! it isn't made as it goes alone.

While I love the whatever happened happend theory, I can't stand the idea that there no free will. If life is predestined, what's the point? Maybe whem we get out of this look and back in 2007, it will be different.

Jeremy Kroening said...

Of course Ben isn't dead; I haven't for one second considered it a possibility. The ending seems to be an excellent way to 1) get Ben in w/ the Hostiles (great job pointing this out Brian) and 2) escalate the tensions between The Hostiles/Dharma, paving the way for The Purge.

jack said...

interesting how so far, the show is focused to the Dharma security community on the Island; not the scientific community. We've had barely a glance at the Dharma heiarcy (sp?)yet.

Using LSD on Sayid was brilliant and consistent with the hippy oriented culture of the folks in Dharma who hesitate to use violence.

Anonymous said...

The next episode is "Whatever Happened, Happened"; "Dead is Dead" is the week after.

Though it does make sense that Sayid shooting Ben is why Ben thinks Sayid is a born killer-Sayid told him so.

There really isn't any free will, by the way. Your decisions are based on the sum of your experiences, the configuration of your brain, your genes, the input you're getting while deciding, and any random chaotic events that occur, either externally or internally. Except for the random chaotic events, the rest is theoretically completely predictable, though because there is no way to actually know all those factors completely, and because of the random element, we say we have free will.

That said, this time travel thing seems to eliminate even that concept of free will, because for Ben they've already happened, whereas they have no idea what's coming.

jon. said...

Nice episode. I like it how the attempts to change things (like killing ben) will in the end bring about the inevitable outcome. How ironic!

The narrative again relies A LOT on the fact that the characters just won't sit don't for 10 minutes, share all information they have and make a rational plan. That's getting a bit strained.

Steve: "Now here is what bothers me about lost. From everyhing I see, there is no free will. Faraday called it a needle on arecord, but a record was pre-recorded! it isn't made as it goes alone."

I knew you'd say that! ;-)

JD said...

I think we have the answer to what Widmore meant when he said, "I know what you are, boy." He could have finished it with, "'re the walking dead."

Anonymous said...

My first thought after Ben was shot was of his spinal surgery that he gets Jack to perform. perhaps not a tumor as much as old bullet...?

Dave Harty said...

Sayid told Jin that Saywer let him out, that may cause problems for Saywer and more in the future.

One point I thought you missed Brian was Ben telling Sayid that Widmore killed Locke (we know it was Ben himself). This false information sets Sayid on his last killing spree, and also makes me wonder who it was he really killed.

Once again, Ben proves himself to be a master liar. But I'm still not sure why Sayid chooses to continually believe Ben...about his wife, the people he's killing, etc. I'm not even sure that the people Sayid killed for Ben were working for Widmore. We only have Ben's word as proof.

Brian said...

I missed the first couple minutes. Where did the episode title come into play? Who said "He's our you", and who did they say it to?

JillyB said...

I don't think Illana is simply a bounty hunter. I do think she's been to the island before, just by the way she said "Where else would we be going?", when Sayid questioned getting on the plane. Why did the crazy teepee living torture guy look familiar, have we seen him before?

jack said...

I still don't see the clear rationale how Sayid came to despise Ben. Also, what motivated Sayid to leave his state of "retirement" building houses to return to the US and try to keep Hurley safe? What evidence did Sayid receive to believe....and tell Hurley....whatever Ben tells you, don't trust or believe? Does anyone (Brian) think the writters will illuminate on this further?

On another matter, Kate began to tell Sawyer what her motivation was to return to the Island. Would love to hear thoughts from the board and/or Brian as to what this could be.

As for Sayid killing Ben...not even worth wasting time thinking if young Ben was actually killed or not. We've gotten evidence, time and again, that the Island won't let certain people die. Furthermore, as indicated on this board earlier, the universe course corrects itself somehow. Ben dying, at age 12, is simply not in the cards! How he survives may make for good, further contemplation on this board.

But hard to think thru clearly how when folks go back in time the effect it has on other peoples memory in our present timeline. In other words, assuming Ben lives, did he always recall Sayid shooting him when he was a young boy?

KarlHightower said...

The 'Teepee' guy was Larry from the Bob Newhart show.
'Hi, I'm Larry, this is my brother Darryl and my other brother Darryl.

KarlHightower said...

I love the Free Will vs. Predestined Path course that this is taking. Almost reminds me of the Forrest Gump soliloquy on the topic. ;)

Seenu said...

@Ellis: When the Dharmites take Sayid to Oldham, Sayid turns back to Sawyer and asks "Who's he?", and Sawyer's answer is "He's our you".

Anybody else catch Sawyer's line to Jack when the bus is on fire - "Three years, no burning buses. Y'all are back for one day..."

I'd love to meet the people who write Sawyer's dialogues!

Steve said...

Nick: Disagree with free will.
You're talking two different things. In lost, you do what you do because it happened. In essense, their entire life appears to be scripted. They did what they did and whatever they do is what they already did.

This is different than your philosphical theory of lack of free will. And I disagree with you there too. But that's another discussion.

Lets say you decide to quit your job and move to a hippy commune like in the season 3 Locke flashback. It's not a matter of being predicable, in the Lost world, you made that decision because time is finite, like the recording on a record, you were always going to do this. It wasn't your decision, you think it was.
And this is the same as a car accident, say you get in a car accident on the way home. That's not free will.. but in the lost timeline, you were always going to get in that accident, from the time you were born, it was predestined.

Steve said...

'He's our you' is what Sawyer.. er.. lafluer said to Sayid when he asked who the 'torture' guy was.

BTW.. truth serums don't exist.

As for Ben... yes, it was him that Killed Locke, but it could also be true that Widmores men were waiting for Sayid or Ben to show up at Hurleys hospital. If what I said about Illena and Widemore is correct, then it would be reasonable for them to be hunting Ben or Sayid. After all, he was trying to protect his daughter as well.

In other words, ben doesn't always lie, but it's someone that you have to assume is lying unil you can prove otherwise. I knew a guy in college like that.. Crazy stories that were way over the top, but there was enough truth that could be verified that you know that part of his story was true, you just never knew how much.
Of course, this guy wasn't as evil as Ben Linus.

Dharma Mayonnaise said...

I have always conceded that Kate was there because she loves Sawyer and thought going back would help save him. I didn't ever think there was more to it.

jack said...

J-Boss...don't you think a motive for Kate had to do, perhaps solely, for Aron?

TheycallmeVic said...

So what's our take with the whole chicken and egg thing?

Ben told Sayid "you're a killer" because that's exactly what Sayid told Ben when he was a boy.
This sort of thing has been happening more often now and it's kind of annoying.

breiTen said...

what is, when all the thinks happend because the surveivors travelt to time? ben said he mistaken in sayid becaus he known he is the man who killed the little ben.. "whatever happened, happened" ... sry 4 my bad english 8{

BlackRob said...

So I'm remembering the scene last night when they're all voting whether or not to execute Sayid, and Amy comes in with the argument that she just doesn't feel safe for herself and her baby with him alive. I just want to know how she can feel perfectly fine on an island crawling with a smoke monster, dozens of "hostiles" that hate her people, a poison gas factory, etc, but be scared to death of a single guy in a jail cell that has been perfectly calm since he was arrested. That has to be one of the worst written scenes I've seen on the show.

jack said...

BlackRob -- excellent point. in retrospect, was pretty weak dialogue.

On another matter, Sawyer has yet to ask Kate if she fulfilled his request, prior to jumping from the helicopter, to contact his daughter. One would think Kate might be compelled to fill Sawyer in or for Sawyer to confirm that Kate got it done for him.

Ben said...

BlackRob - You have to remember, they thought he was a hostile, and a hostile running around outside the phylons is one thing, but having a hostile inside the community is quite another. The last interaction we saw with her and the hostiles was when they killed her last boyfriend. It's not a stretch for her to show concern, especially for a hostile that won't explain why he was caught. Why i do you your point, its not the worst dialogue ever, they just needed to try to kill him. I would have though they would try to contact richard for some sort of bargin instead.

Dharma Mayonnaise said...

Jack, at first I thought it might've been Aaron related but the way she looks/interacts with Sawyer (or the mention of Sawyer) made me think it was all about him (and because Sawyer came up in her and Locke's conversation). I then guessed she left Aaron with his grandmother.

I can totally see it being an Aaron storyline. I think it's being presented as though she's all about Sawyer...

Prachi said...

Interesting - when Saying leaves the building after killing the guy in Russia, the words above the building translate to "Oldham Pharmaceuticals", courtesy of Lostpedia. Any relation to psycho-torturer Oldham w/Dharma?

Dana said...


One thing that really disappointed me about this episode is that it took away my one hope that you were wrong about Ben killing Penny. I had really hoped that Sayid being in handcuffs on the plane was a result of whatever bloody job Ben had done. Shucks! I still hope you're wrong, but I no longer have another theory.

Unknown said...

A thought...

If that old dude was the Dharma's "Sayid", it's no wonder they got purged. My grandma could torture better than that. What Sayid got almost looked fun!

Di said...

Prachi--Interesting find about the name over the door--I'm sure it's an in-joke referring to what's coming up for Sayid. I doubt it's an actual place of business, because the words don't translate, they transliterate as "Oldham Pharmaceuticals." In other words, they just used the Russian letters that make the same sounds as the English words, they didn't use the actual translated Russian word for "pharmaceuticals." For example, they have the word ending in "c" which is an "s" sound in Russian--but plural Russian words don't end in "s."

Now I'll have to re-watch (again) and look at all the Russian words on the buildings....

jack said...

the brand of scotch Sayid was drinking at the bar is the same brand Whitmore drank. the fact that the gal (bounty hunter) knew the price may point out that she is connected with Whitmore.

jack said...

J-Bos....Kate's motive to return to the Island should be very compelling for her to have left her dearly loved child behind especially with a grandparent whom doesn't even realize the kid is related to her and has no idea who Kate is. Also, it would be a huge risk for Kate to divulge to the grandmom that Claire is the kids' biological mom. You agree?

On the other hand, you may be right that her motive is Sawyer related given that she agreed to return to the Island conditional that Jack never ask her why she is returning. If it was Aron related, she may not have imposed that condition.

Anyway, you may be right but I would hope the writters give heft to this story line and make it plausible.

Luke said...

BlackRob - I was thinking along the same lines as you. Say they kill Sayid, who as far as they know, is a Hostile. Wouldn't they be much less safe having killed him and making the Others pissed off about it, maybe leading to them attacking Dharma? It made no sense to me at all.

One thing that I don't know if you all are overlooking, or just that I am missing an explanation for...if "whatever happened, happened", then doesn't Sayid have to stay alive so he can return to the island in 2007? For the same reasons Ben can't die, I think Sayid cannot die.

TheycallmeVic said...

Luke, you're misunderstanding.

In the 70's Sayid is alive somewhere in Iraq, much younger. The Sayid speaking to young Ben is from the future, and can die at any minute.
His 70's, Iraq self, will continue living and eventually crash in the island.

As for Ben, young Ben will definitely not die. Adult Ben running around with Sun in the present is a different story.

Hope you can understand it now.

Luke said...

VictorC- Thanks! That makes sense and clears things up. I now do fear for Sayid's life.

So this means that any of our Returning Survivors can die, right?

Also, what is everyone's thoughts about what the main storyline of the show will revolve around now? Are the survivors going to try to go home? I can see how the Returning Survivors would want to get everyone to go home, since that was the main point of them coming back, right? I can see pretty much everyone going along with this except Sawyer--he seems to be pretty content on the island, like Locke. I think it is this dynamic that will play itself out through next season.

God, I love this show.

Dave Harty said...

Let's consider for a second that the "whatever happened, happened" theory is false and that our time skippers can change the future (even if it is just Desmond).

What if Sayid shooting and killing young Ben does not change what Ben did from 1977 to 2007, but it does, in effect, kill Ben in 2007? Last we saw Ben he was injured in a bed in 2007. Perhaps that was the result of the 1977 shooting and he is dying.

If that is true (and I'll admit, that is a big IF), then the opposite would be true. One of our time skippers might be able to prevent a death (or a mass killing) and, in effect, bring people back to life at a later point in time - Locke, Christian.

Crazy I know, but I am not sold on the whatever happened, happened theory...too many holes.

TheycallmeVic said...

Luke, correct, any of the survivors can die. And I fear for Sayid's life as well, the man's on thin ice.

Dave, what you're saying doesn't make any sense. How can Sayid shooting and killing young Ben not change what Ben did from 1977 to 2007? he's dead, he couldn't do anything... and if the island brings him back alive, then it has no effect on the present living Ben, except for maybe a scar in his chest.

"Whatever happened, happened" is not a theory, the producers have confirmed it.
And what holes do you see in it? because I don't see any.

BTW, next episode's name is "Whatever happened happened," I can't wait for that.

Dave Harty said...

When I say "theory" I use that in a sense that we are discussing time travel, and until we can actually travel in time, it is all theoretical. Perhaps the better word to use is premise.

My thought process came from the way we've seen Desmond remember things. He never remembered seeing Daniel at the hatch door until it actually occured on the island.

So if Des can "not remember" something until it occurs on the island, then it might be possible for Ben to "not die" until he gets shot on the island.

I seriously doubt that this is where the story line is going so I say this with my tounge in cheek. But to test a theory or premise, I like to push it to it's illogical conclussion.

Ben said...

I agree with Victor, I see many more holes with the being able to change the future. Its not like its been 2 days since Sayid went back in time, so now Ben dies in 2007. 2 days after the crash? That shouldn't matter, I think you are trying to use Back to the Future Logic and not Lost Logic. There aren't many holes with whatever happened happened, we are just being led down a misleading path at time. Sayid Always shot Ben in 1977. Ben has to survive it, either because of a mothers pendent around his neck or because the island brought him back to life.

TheycallmeVic said...

Dave, something else to keep in mind is that you're right, Desmond didn't "remember" until it happened.

However, Charlotte remembered Faraday speaking to her when she was a child, BEFORE, he actually time traveled to the past and did it. So that proves you wrong right there.

And I'd bet that Ben survives being shot by Sayid and remembers that his whole life as well, further proving you wrong that you don't remember it until it happens.

Desmond's scenario was just a special case, because, well, he is special (being the only one who can apparently change the past and all).

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

The fickle hand said...


I get it now. The key to everything. Whatever happened, happened.

Think about that. Ben knew Sayid would shoot him as a boy. In fact, Sayid has to return to the island to shoot young Ben or "God help us all."

Perhaps Ben's lies, his deceit, are all designed to make that event happen, as it should? Sayid must return to the past, must shoot a young, innocent Ben. So older Ben must get Sayid to hate him, must help make him a killer.

The people that Sayid kills? They're just..people. No connection to Widmore, perhaps not really.

Ben protests that he's really not such a bad guy and is in fact one of the good guys. And in fact he is. He's trying to preserve the time line. He has to get Sayid to shoot him as a boy. How selfless is that?

What about the coming purge? What if Young Ben finds out that he has to do this? That he is the one? If he doesn't do it, then when the Oceanic flight arrives, Dharma may still be on the island, screwing up the timeline. So he has to release the gas. He has no choice.

Ben may just be the most selfless person in the show. It is the dead hand of fate that makes him evil.

What if the Others have also traveled through time, perhaps from the future. Perhaps from the past. They also have to sometimes act in "evil" ways. Why? Because what happened, happened. They must preserve the timeline. They know the future. They must preserve it.

It explains the weird behavior. The good/bad stuff. Why do the others kidnap certain people, and kill others? Because they have to, that is the way it is. And yes - they know the future. Why else build the landing strip at the Hydra? They knew Ajirra was going to land there, because it landed there in the future, therefore they have to build the landing strip now. It was why they were at the Hydra in the first place. Fate is forcing them to do what they do.

It all makes sense. Everyone on the show is caught up in a Kafkaesque nightmare...

The fickle hand said...

Let's try a thought experiment.

Mr. X shoots Mr. Y. Y lives. Y travels back in time. Y tries to stop X from shooting him, but Y fails because whatever happened, happened. Y can't stop X, or harm X in any way that would prevent the future shooting. If he ties, fate might just drop a tree on his head, or hit him with a lightning bolt (think Charlie).

So what if Y just confronts X? Y says: "What the heck, why will you shoot me in the future? What did I ever do to you?" X has no explanation for it. In fact X is a kind and gentle person. X would never shoot anyone. Y returns to the present, confused and bitter.

Time passes and it comes to the moment that X shoot Y. Up until the moment of the gunshot, X believes he will not shoot Y. Then X realizes, wait a minute, he must shoot Y! If X doesn't, causality will be broken. Y will have never have traveled back in time to talk to X, which is now part of whatever happened, happened. So X has to do it. To save the world X must shoot Y!

Why press the button at the Swan? Because it had to be pressed until Desmond gets there and turns the key. Why? Because what happened, happened.

They key is, once whatever happened, happened starts, then events, behaviors, everything can become completely evil, or simply nonsensical. It certainly spins outside our control.

Fate picks our future for us. Free will exists, but only in the absence of time travel. Once that occurs, the travelers, and everyone they interact with, become locked into outcomes and actions they cannot control.

Widmore "breaking the rules" probably has something to do with this. Probably - Others don't kill Others on the Island, because the Island is a freaky place, and all sorts of undesirable consequences could come of that action since time travel is mixed up into it.

The fickle hand said...

Last post, and then I'll shut up.

The list of survivors to kidnap. When the plane crashes, Ben sends infiltrators to make a list of who was on board. They then ask the Others amoung them who have time traveled from the future, who on this list becomes an Other in the future? Cindy? And the kids? Okay, let's go get them. Why not? That way the future Others amoungst the survivors don't have to suffer living on the beach any longer than necessary. Instead they can live in a nice house at Othersville.

Laura said...

One thing no one has mentioned- I find it unbelieveable that Sayid would ever find himself alone again with a seductive, charming woman that he just met. I mean, if you were almost killed by one of Widmore's operatives (the woman in Germany), common sense would be to only hook up with women you know through someone, not a random person, on the chance that it could be another operative.
Yes, I realize this is a show that has polar bears in Tunisia, etc etc, and we have to suspend disbelief, but I think that the Sayid character is much too smart to go off with some woman he just met.
Otherwise, yes, I'm sure Ben is still alive, just like Locke lived after Ben shot him and left him for dead.
I am waiting for a catfight between Juliet and Kate.

Christine - Tutorial Addict :) said...

Sad to say but Sayid is TOTALLY on death watch for exactly what you said, his whole storyline is wrapped up = tragic death.

IMHO - Ben is alive because he ALWAYS got shot, because Sayid ALWAYS shot him, because they ALWAYS landed on this island & ALWAYS left & came back in 77. Whatever is happening NOW, has always happened. Even all this weird time travely stuff. Perhaps the course correction stuff will all come down to Sayid NOT shooting him because this ONE moment leads little!ben to become CREAPY HEARTLESS!Ben - ?

Dave Harty said...

If Sayid always shot Ben in 1977, does Ben remember that the first time he meets Sayid in 2004?

If so, then Sayid must remember it too.

Christine - Tutorial Addict :) said...

Sayid wouldn't remember because he hadn't done it yet. The Sayid in 2004 is say 30 years old, then 3 years(ish) later he goes back in time and shoots Ben. So the 30 year old Sayid wouldn't know what the 33 year old Sayid had done ... it hadn't happened to him yet.

Steve said...

black rob:

It's not that Amy was scared of just anyone. The suggestion was that he be allowed to live with them(from Sawyer), not leave him in the cell forever. They could also have sent him off the island on the next sub, but that wasn't mentioned. She thought there was a spy who wasn't being up front, and had these crazy stories about being from the future.

But this is moot because he didn't want this, he wanted to be rescues by ben so he could attempt to kill him. See, Saywer doesn't know anything about the 'whatever happned happened' theory.

As for chicket and Egg.. That's easy.. Sawyer told him that he was a Killer. That's why Ben is so calm about this stuff, he knows what's going to eventually happen.

However, Ben is now LOST himself. After the time trip to the 1970's, by the future people, he's not PAST the comfort point.

And I just thought of something! Ben AND Locke both fought to keep the freighter people off the island, but it looks like Faraday and Miles are critical in that they had to time travel as well. So he either didn't know that these people were from the future, or there is a story flaw here somewhere.

Steve said...

Dang.. No.. typo.. Sayid told BEn that he was the killer, that came first.

I have a crying baby and I typed Sawyer by mistake.