This is the episode we've all been waiting for, made all the more satisfying after last week's less than compelling action. Although there weren't a ton of new answers or major action, it just reaffirmed my comments from last week - we don't need a ton of reveals as long as the plot progresses, and that's exactly what the On-Island story did. The overall Season Six storyline is gaining some traction, moving in a direction, just like I was hoping. "The Substitute" was a solid episode that laid the foundation for some even more awesome episodes to come.
So what do discuss?
THE NUMBERS. Remember how the Lost ARG taught us the the 4-8-15-16-23-42 Numbers represented the variables in the Valenzetti Equation, which predicted the end of the world? Well apparently they also represented the characters who are "candidates" to protect the Island. As SmokeLocke put it, "Jacob had a thing for numbers."
4 - Locke
8 - Reyes
15 - Ford
16 - Jarrah
23 - Shephard
42 - Kwon
The first thing that jumps out at me? Kate is missing. We saw that Jacob touched Kate in her youth, yet she isn't on the list of candidates. Has Jacob already eliminated her for some reason? Does this portend Kate's impending death on the Island? Out of all the characters, she's the only one who has an alternate purpose on the Island right now (finding Claire), so I guess it's possible Jacob brought her back to allow her to carry out that purpose - yet it's still pretty interesting that her name wasn't even shown anywhere in the cave that I could see (although I did see some other pretty humorous names - like Troup, author of "Bad Twin").
The Candidates. So who are these candidates? Well, according to SmokeLocke, Jacob brought these people to the Island as replacements for him - people who could "protect the Island". For one, this seems to indicate that Jacob, although he seemed to have spent many, MANY years on the Island, knew that he wouldn't be there forever. It also kinda throws a wrench in my "Jacob's Loop" theories, as well as the ones that involve Jacob and Anti-Jacob being gods. Instead, they seem to be people who gained eternal life on the Island (or something). Heck, even SmokeLocke said that he read books - but that "Of Mice and Men" was "after his time", meaning at one point he might have been a regular person brought to the Island as well, and wasn't just born from a SmokeMom and SmokeDad.
Here's where things get a little tricky. Do we take what SmokeLocke told Sawyer at face value, or do we assume that he is manipulating him to help him get off the Island? If we believe him, he's spent a really long time on the Island listening to Jacob blabber on about needing to protect it, but has never seen anything needing protecting. This makes Jacob's lists and candidates a "waste of time" - and the lives of those candidates, brought to the Island. To SmokeLocke, "it's just an Island" and "it doesn't need protecting".
Of course this is setting the stage for the forthcoming "War for the Island", which either SmokeLocke doesn't see coming (and it's going to be a super ironic for him), or he knows perfectly well what's about to happen - and he doesn't care. He just wants to get off the Island, and could care less what happens to it.
A lot of this stuff ties back to some of my earlier theories about Jacob and Anti-Jacob both being on the same side, but using different methods. Jacob pulled strings and pushed people to get them to the Island. He took the proactive approach of seeking people out. Anti-Jacob feels that this is a foolish endeavor - and even if at one point he loved the Island as much as Jacob, he's grown tired of it, and just wants to be done with it.
Based on Locke's death (and burial) on the Island, he's crossed off the list, leaving only four other candidates to become the "New Jacob". Smart money has to be on Jack Shephard stepping into those shoes, which would potentially give us the Locke vs. Jack showdown that has been hinted at since the show began. But we'll analyze this more in our full analysis.
SmokeLocke. For one, how freaking cool was it to see things from the perspective of SmokeLocke, soaring around on the Island, spying on people, and then settling into John Locke form when he wanted to do something? I liked that a lot. I also found it interesting that Ilana said that he is now "stuck" in John Locke form - that he can't shapeshift into some other being. Why? How? No idea - but it's curious that for the past five seasons, we've assumed that Smokey could take the appearance of anyone and anything (Christian Shephard, Yemi, Kate's Black Horse, Alex) - but perhaps there are some "rules" around this, and he's not so all-powerful after all.
The good news is, this makes life far less confusing, since we don't have to worry about any other Fake Characters running around on the Island confusing us, the viewers.
Ilana and Alpert. The other weird thing about this episode is that Ilana seems to know a whole lot more than Alpert. She collected Jacob's ash (which will undoubtedly come into play later), knew about SmokeLocke's form, and details about Sun and Jin / the Temple, which indicate that she knows exactly what's going on. SmokeLocke's speech with Alpert almost made him appear less important on the Island, and more of a helper monkey to Jacob rather than a second in command who knows the master plan. SmokeLocke almost felt pity for Alpert on finding out how little he actually knows. Now perhaps Alpert is playing dumb to protect himself / the Others / the Island, but all I know is that a sit down conversation between Ilana and Alpert would probably answer all our questions about the Island in about 3 minutes. Make that happen, Lost writers!
Creepy Bloody Kid. So... that was Jacob in a childhood form on the Island? He spoke to SmokeLocke about not being allowed to kill Sawyer and "the rules", which pretty much confirms it, right? Does this mean Jacob just gets reborn on the Island after he dies and quickly ages back to adult form? Or was that the form that Jacob had when he first arrived on the Island, when Anti-Jacob first met him? It's interesting that Alpert didn't see him, but Sawyer did - is this because Sawyer is a candidate and Alpert is not? Is it a hallucination like Hurley sees on the Island? Does this somehow tie into all the other weird images that characters have seen on the Island over the years?
No good answers to this one yet. But we'll get there.
Is everyone else much more excited about Lost now than they were a week ago? Amazing what one week can do!
Discuss!
106 comments:
I'm a lot less mad at the writers now.
I'm thrilled about this epi and next week looks great too! Some thoughts I had -
*YAY numbers! I love that we're seeing things like dark vs light (those rocks/inside joke) and the numbers from season one.
*Maybe Kate is no longer a candidate because she didn't keep to her promise of being a 'good girl' after Jacob helped her? Maybe she's on the island by coincidence?? idk
*Agree on Jack/Locke showdown, something in the preview made me think Jack is the 'new' Jacob but I don't know if that counts as a spoiler.
*SmokeLocke's convo with Alpert - at first I thought the same thing and felt bad for Richard but what then I thought...or Smokey is trying to manipulate him like he did with Ben, and turning him against Jacob.
*I thought the kid could have been Jacob too.
Also - I liked the off island stuff more this time as well. So happy for Locke that he's with Helen (even though she might die in a couple years). I LOL'd at Ben's appearance and loved seeing Hurley.
What kind of animal do you see yourself as? LOL
I think kate is not on the list of candidates because she is a woman. I know that the flocke said that he is not sure if it is jin or sun but I think it will turn out to be jin.
but doesn't jacob appear to hurley as an adult in the first episode of the season? so how is he a child now?
How about Ben being off-island?! Was he with the Others by the time the bomb went off?
Maybe SmokeLocke didn't show Sawyer Kate's name & number since Sawyer might have been influenced to help Kate out rather than follow Smokey, and Smokey knew that?
Also, as a Yankee fan, if you are going to have all the numbers be Yankee greats/retired #s (Lindelof is a huge Yankee fan), couldn't you give #16 to Ford?
Awesome episode - can't wait until next week!
Ok the big reveal----- that all along, ‘Jacob’s list’ was there to find and prove him a rightful heir or ‘substitute’ to be the protector of the island and its ‘special powers’.
Questions:
Who is the kid that tells new Locke he must follow the rules? Why was new Locke surprised that Sawyer could see the kid? When Locke was talking to Sawyer in the cave, how much of that was true and how much of it was just him trying to influence Sawyer to assist him with his plans to get off the island? Also if the new Locke gets off the island, will he be a wheel chair too like Locke was when he went to visit the other Losties?
Brian I love your blog! I'm a long time lurker here.
I'm thinking maybe Kate is the new Jacob - maybe she's #108 - the only number of linked to the Losties we didn't see.
Personally, I'm hoping for Jack or for Sawyer - but I found it suspicious we missed Kate's name and the number 108.
Just a thought. Keep up the great work!!
OH & another thought. When the mystery kid (young Jacob??) said "You can't kill him, you can't break the rules" or something like that was he talking about Sawyer?? What if he was talking about Jacob...Ben stabbed Jacob BUT he was still alive & breathing when Smokey kicked him into the fire...which would then be the cause of death right? Something else we noticed and I'm curious to get more information on.
1. How did Sawyer not notice that the numbers just happened to be the same numbers he was once helping to punch in at the Hatch? Anyhow, love the idea that those 6 have been sort of "chosen" all along.
2. I was looking to see if any other survivor's names were crossed out: The only one I saw was "Littleton". She was #313 or something.
3. Ha. The ep. was called "The Substitute". Double-meaning: Locke is now a "substitute" teacher. Hardy har.
I think Sawyer was still a little drunk/hungover to notice that detail. The characters don't seem to be as obsessed with details as we are. ;)
Note the white rock that Jacob threw into the ocean. Said it was an 'inside joke'. The scale, the balance. There MUST be a balance, if Jacob is rally 'gone'(which I'm not totally sure of with the child and the appearance to hurley), Something has to fill that void.
Flocke is trying to manipulate the canidates, possibly use them against Jacob rather than 'kill' them, though I'm sure his goal is to eliminate of canidates.
I believe his way off the island is to destroy the canidates.
This all ties in with the light and dark stones.
However, I still haven't a clue at how the off island stuff ties in.
what a great episode. my head is going to be spinning over this one for a while.
i thought sawyer made some very interesting and insightful comments throughout the episode...
for example, this one about locke : "you're not afraid. john was always afraid, even when he was pretending not to be."
i don't think sawyer is genuinely on board with flocke's plan to leave the island. i don't think he's deliberately deceiving him either. i think he quickly recognized that whoever this is, he can help get him some answers about everything, and he's willing to take risks to get those answers.
despite his answer at the end of the episode, i think sawyer is figuring out what he's doing as he goes. after all, does sawyer really have any burning reasons to get off the island and get back to the real world?
Alpert - couldn't see the kid = never a candidate.
Sawyer - could see the kid = special = candidate.
Ben - never saw Jacob (or whoever was in the cabin) = not a candidate.
Locke - heard the cry for help = candidate.
Hurley - saw the eyeball = candidate.
Mark, I think Sawyer has lots of reason to leave the island...Juliet is gone...what reason does he have to stay? He's obviously very depressed and DONE with being on the island...I think he's looking for any way he can find to leave for good.
i think it's important to consider that "Shephard" could mean Jack, Christian, Claire, or even Aaron!
probably means Jack, but I thought of this when he said that he didn't know whether "Kwon" related to Jin or Sun - maybe it could even mean their baby?
Just something to think about...
Nice recovery from last week! Still no idea on the flash sideways and it just seems this week threw all theories I've had or heard right out the window. I heard Jorge Garcia say in an interview that they will begin to make sense about mid-season so we will have to be patient and keep the faith.
I can't believe I didn't notice this until tonight:
The name Jacob means "Supplanter"
Supplanter - one who wrongfully or illegally seizes and holds the place of another
I can't wait to find out why Locke is in a wheelchair in the flash-sideways.
His fiance mentioned his dad in a "favorable" tone - another CHANGE from the original.
How did Locke become paralyzed? Obviously, he was not pushed out of a building by his dad this time.
Still missing Juliet. She was way hot ...
Longtime lurker!
A few things:
Kate's name wasn't on the list, yet Jacob visited her when she was a child. But I don't think the visit was meant to bring her to the island. In fact, maybe it was to keep her from coming to the island in the first place. Her presence has certainly stuck wrenches in a lot of plans re: Jack and Sawyer.
I don't think this episode negates your Jacob's loop theory. I don't think we've had enough evidence yet to eliminate your theory. Keep it going!
SmokeLocke said he was trapped. And that the candidates were to be "protectors" of the island. Right after he explained the 3 options to Sawyer my brother said, "he needs all the candidates to die or get off the island. With Jacob dead, there's no protector, and as long as a protector, he's 'trapped.' Once he can eliminate all the candidates, he'll be free." Pretty insightful, and my brother might be correct! We'll see!
The war over the island - Ilana said SmokeLocke was looking for recruits. I think he is trying to build up his army. I got that feeling when he was trying to persuade Richard to his side. "Come with me" = fight on my side, not Jacob's.
Great episode! One question I have is that if the names on the cave represent "Jacob's List" then why did the Other's say in an earlier season that "Shepard wasn't on Jacob's list"?
I don't think this throws a wrench into your time loop theory at all. It just gives us some indication as to what Jacob's motivation/endgame is for causing this loop.
I certainly don't see all of the black/white symbolism as good/evil so much as yin/yang. Notice that AJ throwing the white rock into the ocean threw the scales off-balance.
It's like "opposite day" in the other reality. Hurley is all positive, Helen is alive and loves John, Kate stops running to help Claire....etc.
Not that it matters but just for fun, here are some other names that were crossed out (spelling and numbers may be slightly off).
10 – Mattingley
20 – Roupe
21 - Sullivan
90 – Troup
101 - Farraday
115 – Bargas
119 – Almieda
140 – Lewis
222 – O’Toole
233 – Jones
272 – Chandler (maybe)
291 – Domino
313 – Littleton
The only ones that jump off the page are Farraday & Littleton.
It's certainly Jin because last week they wouldn't kill him because he was "one of them"
How rediculously AWESOME is it that when everything is said and done, the Jack vs Locke showdown would be with
JACK representing the side that needs to protect the island and would do anything for it
and
LOCKE wanting to leave and Saying things like "its just an island! It doesn't NEED protecting" (a direct line from Jack -Season 4)
Awesome episode!
Also, Brian I think the bloody kid meant Jacob, not Sawyer. That AJ wasn't supposed to kill Jacob. I never saw AJ even hint at killing Sawyer.
Great episode and a few immediate questions;
1. WHERE??: where does SmokeLocke want to go if or when he leaves the Island?
2. WHAT? what in the world is SmokeLocke (and Jacob)? and also, the most basic of all questions, what is this Island?
3. WHO? why were this list of "substitues" chosen? what was the criteria that Jacob had in mind? Can't wait to learn Illana's history, at some level. As pointed out, she seems to be more "all knowing" than Richard. Who is she? What is her connection to Jacob and the Island? Also, can't wait to learn about Charles Whitmore and how he came to choose the side he choose. What is his skin in this game about? I wonder when or if Aron's story line, as it relates to the Island, will come back into play. Finally....seeing Ben as a school teacher???? Is this what would have become of Ben's life if he never became involved with the Island?
I aggree with cj hadley.
I guess Kate isn't a candidate because the list of candidates only includes male survivors. And I think because of this "Kwon" represents Jin instead of Sun in the list.
Looking forward to see your analysis!
Pantless Sawyer pounding whiskey with a Smoke Monster in Dharmaville . . . classic!
Just wondering; how does Sawyer and Smokey get back up to the main land from the cave since the rope ladder broke? Lol. How is that for over thinking?
one main question; Where is home to smokeLocke now?
1. To those thinking YoungJacob meant 'you can't kill Jacob' and not Sawyer - no, Jacob admitted that Anti-Jacob had found his loophole, so game over and well played old chum on that score.
2. More importantly, I started to see in this episode that the 'alternate reality' story line may not be 'alternate' at all, but a pretense for the Losties 1st journey to the island! Why is it John Locke could walk after he crashed on the island? Because he eventually sought out Jack in this 'alternate storyline' and Jack fixed his legs. There may be a convergence of storylines in this alternate plot that lead ALL our Losties to that 1st crash on the island!
The timing is all off of course like Claire and Aaron etc, but what if their circumstances are supplanted from the 'alternate plot reality' without their knowledge/memory and somehow mix with their original timeline thread - so we will see Rose somehow cured in this alternate plot and hence will explain why she is cured on the island??
No? Im sure there are holes-a-plenty to pick in that idea, but it was fun to think of it! :-)
Oh, and everyone realises that Anti-Locke was/is one of the first 'candidates' right? Or 'substitutes' for Jacob? Not an equal or so forth?
He became v close friends with Jacob (hence the black/white rock symbolism) but he fatally betrayed Jacob in the past, hence the bloodied Jacob image that AntiLocke was genuinely frightened of (and as Sawyer noted this guy does not scare easily!).
So you have a guilty 'candidate' who was once a friend, now betrayer (hence Jacob mentioned "my friend tired of me", i.e. a very forgiving nod to someone who tried to kill him before!), now trying to get the heck out of there as his conscience is in tatters!
Which also means Anti-Jacobs name is surely one on that Rock face! But which??
Could Jacob have been the original Smokey? It was said that Jacob was looking for a candidate...it seems that that was what Smokey did...he searched Eko, searched Locke, etc. Also, when Ben needed Smokey at the barracks he was able to call upon him. Maybe when Jacob died it allowed SmokeLocke to take Smokey's form.
Now THAT was a good episode, possibly one of the coolest in the last two seasons.
There were a few moments I wanted to stop and rewind about a thousand times.
* SmokeLocke- Man it was cool to see things through Smokeys eyes. I swear that Alpert knew his name "Michael, I'm not going anywhere with you..." but none of my friends thought so. I played it back a couple times and I still think Alpert called him Michael. It was a weird conversation that they had because when SmokeLocke mention candidates Alpert didn't know what he was talking about. SmokeLocke seemed to suggest that Jacob has been using Alpert, maybe even to bring candidates to the island.
* Creepy Bloody Kid- I'm pretty sure the kid wasn't talking about not being able to kill Sawyer because it didn't seem like he was going to. I don't think the kid was Jacob but rather Aaron. I don't know how/why but its just a hunch and I think it would be darn cool. He does look a bit like Claire and being a mystical baby maybe Aaron has properties that frighten SmokeLocke. Perhaps last season when Claire appeared to Kate asking her not to bring him to the island it wasn't really Claire but SmokeClaire.
* The list is something I want to go and look at and study more. I did pause it and find a few names- Goodspeed, Pace (Charlie?), Lewis (Charlotte?). Two names that spun me out were Littleton (Claire) and Jarrah (Sayid). At first I thought candidates were crossed out if they were dead but Claire is not dead yet. Then I thought perhaps if they become "possessed" then they also get crossed out, but Sayids name hasn't been crossed out yet.
I am not sure if the crossed out names in the list are important or just red herrings. Obviously the names that are really important are the remaining names.
Well, shiver me timbers...just like I mentioned last post how quickly an episode can put my faith in the show into march mode.
I'm intrigued with Smokelocke's connection to Locke as not entirely broken. His repetition of the line, "Don't tell me what I can and can't do," might suggest that Locke hasn't fully left the building (his body).
Locke "is, or was, a candidate" -- "nothing is irreversible" -- I'm just sounding off but certainly Locke has been my favorite (and most enigmatic / important) characters from the beginning. Burned into my mind's eye forever will be his holding the two backgammon pieces explaining white and black.
One last thought -- so much seems to be coming full-circle with the characters via subtle direct quotes/story arcs. Just wondering to what extent the writers will carry this out...will we close with Shepard's eyes closing?
Enough already - I should be working. See how Lost leads me away from lugging ahead with my labors?
Great show.
WOW, did I not call it after reading your last post, about the kid?! :)
Here are the list of names from losteastereggs.blogspot.com
Oceanic
Alive
8 – Reyes
15 – Ford
16 – Jarrah
23 – Shepard
42 – Kwon (Jin or Sun? Both?)
313 – Littleton (Claire? Aaron?)
Dead
195 – Pace
4 – Locke
Others
10 – Mattingley
317 – Cunningham
117 – Linus (Roger? Emily? Ben?)
55 ? – Burke
Dharma
??? – Goodspeed (Horace? Olivia? Ethan?)
134 ? – Chang
French Team
? – Lacombe
Freighter
Lewis
Faraday
171 ? – Straume
US Army
233 – Jones
Undetermined
222 – O’Toole
291 – Domingo
346 – Grant
Partial
33 – XW?
20 – Rouf…
62 – …?
90 – Tr(oup?)
…? – …ersen
285 – Jen…
49 – …chan
30 – …la
195 – …?
?? – Reyno(lds?)
27? – …?
1? – Sullivan
…? – …zki
I totally think that kid is Aaron. it was my first thought when i saw him
The kid looks just like the actor that plays Jacob, but I think that is just a coincidence and def not young-jacob b/c after jacob died he appeared as himself at the same old age to Hurley.
It very well could be Aaron, or it could be nobody.
I don't think Smoke-Locke has to kill anyone. He doesn't have to kill the other candidates to leave. He was recruiting LaFleur (just wanted to shake up the names a little) to help him leave. I think that is one of the "RULES" that the only way he can leave is if he leaves with a candidate. The whole thing is a big game IMO. And the teenager saying "you cant kill him" could be talking about any male on the island so I'm not gonna speculate on that one yet.
But I believe one of the Rules of their game is that Anti needs a candidate to take him off the island.
Very little mention of the off-island action.
Much to my dismay, I now believe that this is an alternate timeline. I was hoping that the universe would somehow send all of the 815ers back to the island somehow and that is where the two storylines would coverge. But I think Sawyers explanation of why he was there (my plane crashed, my raft blew up, I jumped out of a helicopter, etc) indicates that to "that" Sawyer, all the things we saw happen did happen in that timeline.
So in the other timeline, much has changed. Just a few questions. I know Hurely is a hairy guy, but did he grow those sideburns overnight? Did he look like that when 815 landed at LA X? Also, wouldn't he have seen and recognized Rose on the same flight from Australia?
Also, of all the candidates we saw Jacob touch, all but one were touched well before they ever got on flt 815. Only Hurley (as far as we know)was touched after the O6 returned home.
Also for the "why is Smokey so surprised that Sawyer can see the kid?"
I think it's because Alpert couldn't see the kid. I think that's because he isn't a candidate and therefore not special.
Dave: My buddy asked me that about Rose/Hugo. Hugo is a corporate big wig. Probably doesn't get too much face time with that many employees at other places. I know he went and spoke with Randy, but for him to know Rose and recognize her on a flight would be kinda silly.
Was the kid talking about not killing Sawyer, or not killing Jacob? I thought it was the latter at the time...
Jack.
I was under the impression that he could simply clone dead bodies... Yemen's body was "there" when he took over that body, although the plane was in ashes, the body was there somewhere. He appeared as Alex while judging Ben below the temple. But if memory serves correctly, that was in more of a whirl-wind of black smoke right? or did he ever just appear as Alex walking around like normal?
The only question to the cloning deal is Christian. No body in his coffin after the crash would lead you to believe that Smokey just took over the corpse, but couldn't that body have been anywhere? like in a random tree somewhere or something?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIqToq25n1Q
Mike Emerson on Jimmy Kimmel
illana is jacobs daughter...i think
O'Toole is the last name of one of the associate producers LOST, who joined the team last year, Noreen O'Toole. So I assume that given that they had a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT of space to fill on that wall, a good amount of names that can't be recognized are shout-outs to the behind the scenes guys at the show.
LOCKE'S FATHER/ANTHONY COOPER/THE REAL SAWYER:
Helen says to Locke "We'll just get my parents, and your father, and do this small" or something... WOULD THAT NOT IMPLY That he and his father are on good terms, if he is assumed to be attending his wedding without problem... if so, then I strongly doubt that he would have pushed his son out a window....
BUT! as Sawyer pointed out in the finale last year, his parents died ONE YEAR BEFORE Juliet turned the screen white by blowin' up the bomb. Meaning that it there is no way it could have changed that his father is STILL the real Sawyer and responsible for LOST Sawyer's parent's being dead...and still a con man... So, HUGE Mistake by LOST writers?.. Although I doubt it will EVER be mentioned again, as I don't see us getting more than ONE Flash Sideways per character.
Small catch from last night. The agent at the temp agent asking Locke what kind of animal he considers himself is played by the same actress who played the PSYCHIC who told Hurley the numbers were cursed. Not sure if we were meant to notice or not. But why else use the same actress.
Amazingly good episode! Very little physical action but much revelation and great dialog between SmokeLocke and Sawyer.
Brian wrote: "So... that was Jacob in a childhood form on the Island? He spoke to SmokeLocke about not being allowed to kill Sawyer and "
The kid didn't say Sawyer. He said that it isn't allowed to kill "him". So the kid could be someone else (Aaron?) and "him" could mean Jacob (if the kid isn't Jacob reborn then Craig's objection above falls).
I noticed that the other (crossed out) names in the cave had numbers that aren't in the special sequence (4, 8, 15, 16, 23, & 42). What does that mean? Well it again confirms that there's something important with that sequence. But it also indicates that Jacob didn't know that and didn't create the power of the numbers (or whatever we should call their special status). If he knew they were special and that the real candidates would match the sequence then it wouldn't have made any sense to write down names of any person who had the wrong matching number, right? (How Jacob at all matched numbers to persons is still a mystery of course.) So, in sum the numbers seem to have some importance that is freestanding from Jacob.
Dragos: but the others' would probably only have the name "Kwon" without knowing which of the two it is either. In that situation it makes sense that they see Jin as "one of them". But we can't take that as confirmation that it is Jin rather than Sun (or the fetal Kwon) that Jacob meant.
Maggie: Nice find! I didn't notice that but you're clearly right (there are pics of the psychic on lostpedia). Maybe Hurley in the alternative storyline gave her a job, just like he did with Locke.
Keep on Lostin'!
hi bones.....what led you to believe Illana is Jacob's daughter aside from her being somewhat all knowing?
noemailformeadows....I wonder if "claiming" means taking over the phsyical body (Sayid???) or leaving the body alone and "claiming" a persons' appearance for whatever reason(s)?
Also, anyone spot the spider crawling on Locke's face? Could this have any significance? (ala Nicky and Paulo)???
Has it been explicitely said that they were candidates to replace Jacob?
I remember he said candidate to be the island's protector, but I haven't assumed Jacob right away. It could just be someone to replace Dogen, or maybe Alpert (that's why Jacob never fully told him).
Interesting that Faraday's name was ever on that 'list', if he was marked out. Wouldn't Jacob have known that he died in 1977?
Jacob knows all. right?
Looking back at previous seasons, I'm a little disappointed in some inconsistancies.
In Season 2, didn't they specifically say that Jack was not on the list? What's the whole deal with Walk and the killings of Lucia and Libbie? Think about it, was all that for nothing? First they weren't on the list, then they sent for Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley, the they send hurley back. I see a reason for Jack. but none of that season 3 stuff makes much sense in light of what we've seen in season 5 and so far in season 6. I'll wait to draw final conclusions, but it's starting to look obvious that until they had a 'final' season agreed upon, they were just making stuff up as filler. I still love the show, but i fear that when we go back and watch in in sequence, it won't be the solid novel I was hoping for... but I'm sure the end will be worth the wait.
What's the deal with Jacob burning into a white powder? Do you have any idea of the temperature that would be required to cremate a human body? That fire would have charred him, nothing more. Does this suggest that maybe Jacob is stuck in one form, just like flocke/smokey? And that since he's not 'real' in the human sense, that simple fire will turn this form to ashes?
Many Princess Bride connections:
A climb down the cliffs of insanity with the Man in Black climbing first and catching/helping Sawyer, who, of course, killed his father and seems quite prepared to die.
I think the music was the most obvious homage to the Princess Bride climb. Almost identical.
I'm surprised Sawyer didn't say, "inconceivable".
Have fun storming the castle!
Jack - I saw that spider too...it was obviously there for a reason.
It occurred to me in a pre-wake-up haze that the off-island version survivors seem happier and "at peace". Hugo certainly seems to have it all together, and in that last scene between Locke and Ms. Bundy you could sense his relief at being able to let go... kind of the opposite of on-island Locke, who is always on a quest for something. Will they all find peace? I wonder when Juliet wanted to tell Sawyer "it worked," it means, go find me when you get off the plane because I'll be there. And you know Kate and Jack will get together in this alternate reality, probably for good.
It seems like this world contains the destinies for our survivors we were hoping for.
In my pre-wake-up haze it also struck me that Jacob was touching our survivors not to bring them to the island to "save it", but to somehow enable them to enter this alternate reality. Not sure how though.
"rules that can't be broken" Season 5 episode 1
any relation to the mystery child's statement?
First off- any child who had Ben Linus as a teacher would be seriously.scarred.for.life.
Second- Is it possible that Anti-Jacob was the first candidate that Jacob chose and somehow it all went wrong? And after realizing this that he (real Jacob) has been allowing Anti-Jacob all along to plot and scheme for a loophole as a part of some plan to actually bring about the new candidate? Maybe Jacob couldn't just undo what he had done with a candidate the first time around?
Third-Major biblical undertones there with the creepy kid in the Jacob and Esau story.
Fourth- Nice shot of a crab crawling on real John Locke's face.
sneaking suspicion,thats all ;)
Okay, a theory that ties a lot of this together....
The island has special magnetic properties, that has been established. Our minds have electrical impulses. Somehow, when someone dies on the island, the minds of people get imprinted on the electromagnetic field. They are preserved. The voices are those minds, those that have retained some level of consciousness after death.
Two minds, and only two, are able to do more than just express voices, but create physical forms, Jacob and anti-Jacob. They are perhaps the first two people to have died on the island.
The voices can take over the body of someone that has recently died. This is the "sickness". Once a voice gets in, they slowly grow in the mind until they take over. Sometimes this process causes madness. The vaccine prevents this from occurring - if you die you simply stay dead.
This is why the voices seem to appear whenever someone is about to die, or something very bad is about to happen. Also it explains why not all the dead are "claimed" - a voice wasn't around at the right time to do the claiming. Or the body was too damaged. Also different voices, different people - some people are just not suited to be claimed, and some voices are not strong enough to manage the feat.
CFL "died" giving birth, like all woman on the island. She was "claimed". Her crew was not sick, she was. But the claiming was never complete. She managed to somehow retain some of her original self, and perhaps slowly regain control.
Jacob and anti-jacob were the original Adam and Eve. Jacob was a woman. Somehow, at some point, Jacob was able to take physical form - perhaps he claimed a body. It may be that the smoke monsters can only claim certain people - "canidates". This was why he could be killed, and why he could leave the island, and why he isan't really dead. It may also be why anti-jacob hates him so very much - he is still stuck there as the "security system".
Dharma came to the island like so many others - but with a difference. They could resist the claiming (the vaccine), they could repel the smoke monster (sonic fence). They disrupted the magnetic field (Swan Hatch). At first there was no problem, but eventually they had to be eliminated by the Others.
I don't have any idea about the numbers, other than Jacob is clearly manipulating probabilities for some reason. It is a game designed to achieve a certain outcome.
Anti-jacob needs Sawyer - he intends to have Sawyer kill the other candidates, and then have Sawyer get killed in such a way that he can claim him and leave the island. Jacob still exists, but in some reduced form - just one of the voices. Perhaps he will grow more powerful over time, but he can no longer leave the island.
The end will be....hmmmm. Sawyer and Kate, the new Jacob and anti-Jacob. Sitting on a beach, bickering over fate.
interesting backgammon rule my wife brought up..."The Jacoby Rule"
http://www.bkgm.com/rules.html
Funny stuff...
Last season, in the foot, before Ben kills Jacob, Ben says to Jacob, "Richard would bring me your instructions, all those slips of paper, all those lists", so maybe Jack wasn't on ONE of Jacob's lists, but that doesn't mean he wasn't always on the "candidate list"?!
Why would Jacob need a replacemente hence the need for candidates in the first place?
Who is Jacob? What's is purpose? How do he protect things?
Steve said "Interesting that Faraday's name was ever on that 'list', if he was marked out. Wouldn't Jacob have known that he died in 1977?
Jacob knows all. right?"
What's to say Jacob didn't cross out his name in 1977?
Someone asked why Jack et al were kidnapped by the others @ end of season 2 & stuck there for the first part of season 3:
I haven't really been waiting for some final explanation of that; I thought it was straightforward back then: Ben had cancer, needed Jack to operate, & manipulated Kate & Sawyer to get them to hook up so that Jack would be sad & do the surgery for Ben. Ben's a master manipulator.
Remember: they gave Kate a shower, made her put on a pretty (& short) dress, then made she & Sawyer do manual labor together. Not a bad way to get them all hot for one another. Then, conveniently, they stuck Kate in a cage she could climb out of. So they end up having sex, Ben films the whole thing & conveniently puts Jack in position to "accidentally" see it.
Hurley was just kidnapped so he could be used as a messenger.
I gotta wonder if those specific numbers became important because of their association with the names on the list, or if the names became important because of their association with the numbers on the list.
In other words, was Sayid a candidate because he was listed as number 16, or was the number 16 important because Sayid was a candidate?
I can't stop thinking about Aslan (The Chronicles of Narnia) and that regardless of killing him, there was a deeper magic that negated his death. Does AJ not know of this and Jacob is able to be not dead?
Also, FLocke wasn't afraid, but real Locke would be... does this relate to Sayid, too? He showed fear, so he "failed". Maybe that just means he isn't "chosen" or special like they had hoped.
Am i crazy or have we seen the image of the bloody person in the jungle before?? I have been searching on Lostpedia and wracking my brain.. but i can't remember when or who it was. I feel like Eko saw something similar.
does this ring a bell with anyone else??
ps. great episode. great instant reactions.. can't wait for the full analysis.
What about Desmond's and Penny's story line? Would be a shame for their epic love story and Desmond's connection to the Island not be reconcilled.
How about Whitmore and Eloise Hawkings (sp?)? Will we ever learn what their skin in this game was?
And how about Illana and the "shadow" people? She clearly knows more than Ben and apparently more than Richard too. How was she connected to Jacob?
can't recall the bloody kid before, specifically, but plenty of dead people have shown up that some can and others cannot see. One was Walt, who returned to remind Locke that he had work to do...
Fickle: that theory is so far out there I don't think I can reach it, but one small problem with your Voices theory is that you hear them plenty before nothing really happens: Sayid in season 1 when he's on his way back from CFLs place and Sawyer in season 1 when he chases the boar that F-ed his tent up.
Jesse: You're not crazy. Ecko saw the altar boy from his church in the woods. He was hallucinating like crazy and saw like 4 different people. Some were bloody some were not. I know the first time he saw the altar boy he was not bloody. I would have to rewatch the episode to know for sure.
Jack: I think Whidmore and Eloise are both on Team Anti. Def gonna see them some more IMO.
Does anyone else think WALT is gonna be back soon??? I'm sorry but if he does not come back, I'm gonna send a letter to the writers about how freaking lame all the crap they made a big deal about Walt in the first 2 seasons was... They made such a concentrated effort to make that kid look like the little boy Jesus and we've only seen him twice in the last 2 seasons. Also, Walt never died so it had to have been him appearing randomly in the jungle all those times and not Jacob/Anti doing tricks..... right?
Just rewatching some episodes on hulu from season 4/5 that I didn't quite get. On season 5 Ep. 6 "316" Faraday's mom told Jack that John was supposed to be the "substitute" for his father who died in Australia...
around the 12:45 mark but start at the 11:40 mark to get the full dialog. Someone watch it and see if it has anything to do with this weeks episode.
Thanks
http://www.hulu.com/watch/99275/lost-316#play-queued-show-by-original_premiere_date-asc
I think that was Eloise working as part of Team Anti... she had a good way to explain it to Jack about how it would more closely recreate the original flight, but Ben used a different logic when explaining it to Jack at the funeral parlor that they had to get as many original Losties back to the island as possible.
Although now that I'm thinking about it, Smokeyness took over Christian's body when he got to the island right? And Eloise says Locke is to be a "substitute" for Christian. So maybe she wasn't talking about the flight at all. Maybe she was talking about a "substitute body"...
http://boardgames.lovetoknow.com/Ancient_Egyptian_Board_Games
What if the whole thing is really one big game, like Senet (Egypt Checkers) or Sega (Risk like). One of the game's goals is to get all the pieces off the board (island), the pieces moved by 'rolling' sticks that were dark on one side, like on another... the numbers could represent the candidates 'role' and they move off the board and into our 'flash sideways'.
If this is the case, light and dark just represent to opposing sides, and the candidates would be pawns for whoever is playing this cosmic game, but in the end, they all win b/c the players just want them off the board (island), granted on their terms. Sega is interesting b/c it allows the player to capture other pieces and use them against the opposition.
noemailformeadows, Smokey hasn't taken over anyone's body. He simply took the form of it, like he's now doing with Locke.
I do wonder if there's more Eloise's "substitute" reference, and there could be. Right now I'm just thinking along the lines you mentioned. That the Locke's body was needed because there was a corpse (Christian's) on the original flight.
Is Eloise working for AJ? if she is, she was probably duped like Ben was. Thinking she was working for Jacob.
As for a prediction or guess on Walt returning....IMO, doubtful. I agree that they did make a big deal of this character but hard to see them writing him back into a story given his age now compared to the start of the show. Will be fun to see....in the meantime, i guess we all must manage our expectations to help prevent major letdown at the wrap of the season/show.
Victor, I meant to say that. oops. I did ask this question at some point and didn't get any responses - Christians body was missing from the casket when he was out walking around in the jungle - which we are supposed to assume now was Smokey. Since he obviously doesn't inhabit the actual dead body - which we see with the Locke situation - are we supposed to assume that his body went flying out of the casket into a tree or something during the crash? I know Yemen's body was still there in the plane ashes (i guess) when Smokey was pretending to be Yemen talking to Ecko. "you speak to me as if I am your brother"... reminds me of the way SmokeyLocke is talking.
Jack. I won't be mad/letdown if I don't ever see Walt again. Just may have to write the guys and ask them what happened to that special kid from the first two seasons
I wonder if C&L will do any sort of major, post LOST podcast, or other form of comminication, to try to address some of the loose ends, not dealt with in any episode, us die hard fans might have? Walt's fate and purpose clearly may hit that list for many. In the past, the producers were pretty candid about discussing the reality of the actor Malcom Kelley getting apparently older from the premiere of the show till now.
my first post here, but have been following and enjoying for awhile...
great episode and season so far.
just had a thought more related to a scenes in LA X and the Kate episode re Sayid.
Perhaps the "temple others" intentionally drowned Sayid? then when he came back to life they intentionally drowned him?
oops, I meant to say:
Perhaps the "temple others" intentionally drowned Sayid? that would help explain why they tried to poison him when he came back to life...
Smoke-Locke is probably trapped inside the form of Locke because of teh fact that Jacob has died... somehow.
The. I don't know why they would intentionally try to kill Sayid if he was a "Candidate" for Jacob - one of his pieces in this big game. However that dirty water in the spring may have changed everything up there.
Rob-Rose. My take on the "stuck" is along the lines of he may have a limited number of "moves" that he can make. But the Stuck b/c jacob died holds water so we will find out in time
Noemailformeadows I agree with you. The only thing is I'm not 100% that was Smokey as Christian, simply because we haven't seen the corpse.
Sayid was resurrected with the murky temple waters (murky because Jacob was dead, so AJ's influence was in the water instead of Jacob's), and also AJ claimed him by those same waters. Perhaps he found a way to do that with Christian as well.
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Guys, when AJ said he was trapped, he meant in the island, not Locke's shape.
The AJ trapped deal is referring to Illana saying that AJ was stuck in the form of Locke last episode.
I'm not sold on AJ being Christian either but there is a lack of options out there... until the writers present a new one that we didn't know existed.
I don't think the dirty water in the spring indicated that Jacob was dead. The others didn't know Jacob was dead until Hurley told them - after they had tested the water.
I'm starting to give some thought to the giant backgammon game theory. Black v. White and "home" is the ultimate place for the game pieces.
I was reading some of Brian's very first posts. This is a quote for his preview of Solitary from season 1:
"Isn't it weird that the "monster" hasn't been seen since Locke came face to face with him? I still think Locke is part of a bigger story, maybe even working on the side of the island. Maybe the monster was directly tied to him and his story. Maybe the monster ate the real Locke and now it's some "replacement Locke" on the island who is working to pit people against each other. Remember, he gave the knife to Sayid last week and was like "Get 'er done"?."
Good call Brian, just a few seasons early (or maybe not?) :)
Dave, I think the water being dirty was exactly because of Jacob's death.
Before that it was clear, as Lennon alluded to. It also used to heal, which is what Dogen was testing.
The others didn't know Jacob was dead until Hurley told them, but the waters were dirty before that.
On a side note, I think the source of those waters also lead to that spring the losties drank water from at one point early in the show. Perhaps this is how Rose's cancer was healed.
What are the "replays" everyone's talking about with the "pop-ups"? I watch all the episodes online, so what am I missing?
Victor. I dunno man saying the water from the caves is the water in the spring is stretching a little bit... Anything is possible in LOST of course but what else did the water from the caves do? A few bad things happened at the caves that the water they were drinking did Not cure - boone died, shannon's asthma... so I don't know about that one.
Sherilyn. before the new episode each week, they show the previous weeks episode with subtitles on the bottom that give cool random facts about what's happening in the show and extra info in general. Pretty cool I always Tivo the replays and keep them and delete the originals.
Yeah Noemailformeadows, you're right about that. It was just an idea, but you pointed out several holes in it.
If smoke-Locke is restricted to only appear as "Locke", then it must NOT have been smoke-Locke who appeared as Alex to Ben during their visit to the temple (recall--that "Alex" told Ben to do everything that "Locke" requested).
If Anti-Jacob is indeed stuck in Locke's form as Ilana stated, I don't think that happened until Jacob's death. My money says that when Jacob died, the game was afoot.
Jacob's death has made SmokeLocke stuck in Locke's form (unless he's the smoke). So, going with that theory, Alex would have been AJ, because at that point Jacob was still alive.
Interesting how Locke saying (when telling his wife what he said when he couldn't go on the walk-about, in the alternate timeline)
...."Don't tell me what I can't do"
This line was repeated by anti-Locke (talking to the young boy).
I believe someone already posted this observation but it may merit further contemplation.
SmokeLocke was "smokey" as he was traveling around the island - looking in on Sawyer (we saw the reflection of smoke in Sawyers window). He then took the form of Locke again to pick up the machete and cut Richard down.
Did anyone see the framed poster behind Locke when he goes to interview with Rose? Kinda' looked like Desmond to me, but it doesn't look like Penny next to him. Maybe wishful thinking... Anyway, it's at the 30 minute mark. What do you think?!
Despite what SmokeLocke said, the fact that the Island was shown at the bottom of the sea may make it clear that the Island does need a 'protector'.
Christine, he doesnt look anything like Desmond :)
Dave Harty,
Yeah, I agree. I don't think he's stuck from turning into the smoke monster. I just don't think he can take the form of any other person on the island except Locke. May be wrong on that one, but that's my guess. He's stuck with either the smoke or Locke since Jacob's death.
Thanks nijo for checking it out! I guess it was wishful thinking! I feel like we got too little Desmond action overall : (
Oh, and HOLY WOW
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FrqUbrAYIHA/S33Sgl7ob8I/AAAAAAAAAHA/WMEtBgs88Ho/s1600-h/locke+desk.jpg
christine - i thought the same thing about that poster & desmond. you aren't alone.
Here's the picture in question:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=134845&fullsize=1
There's a resemblance to Desmond from far, but you can tell it's not him.
I couldn't sleep and was reading some of the old blog entries and came across this gem from November 14th 2004 entry:
"Isn't it weird that the "monster" hasn't been seen since Locke came face to face with him? I still think Locke is part of a bigger story, maybe even working on the side of the island. Maybe the monster was directly tied to him and his story. Maybe the monster ate the real Locke and now it's some "replacement Locke" on the island who is working to pit people against each other. Remember, he gave the knife to Sayid last week and was like "Get 'er done"?."
That turned out to be a ridicuously close guess 6 years later. way to go Brian.
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