I feel like there were a lot of answers provided in that episode... but unfortunately I don't think we're to the point where we're able to understand them... yet. Let's get some discussion points out there as we muddle through the confusion...
Jacob. So Jacob and Man #2 have always been on-Island, and have been unable to kill each other - much like the "rules" that seem to exist between Ben and Widmore. Jacob has been visiting our Survivors throughout their lives, perhaps even "pushing them" along their way to ensure they end up on-Island. But why? It seems that the net result of our Survivors getting on-Island thus far is Jacob dying (in the grand scheme of things). Heck, he seemed to bring Locke back to life after he was pushed out of the window by his father (PS - how many of the flashback scenes were you able to "call" beforehand? It's sad how easily I recognize things like background shots from two seasons ago... ) and that definitely eventually lead to Man #2 impersonating him and killing him. Bad move, Jacob.
I'm also guessing that Man #2 was actually the guy we saw in the Cabin (since as I noted in my episode preview, he kinda looked like him), but "escaped" thanks to the gap in the ash around the Cabin. He was then able to impersonate John Locke to manipulate Ben and find a loophole to kill Jacob. So Man #2 is the "bad guy" and Jacob was the "good guy"... but unfortunately now he's dead.
Locke. Conversely, Locke is suddenly the "bad guy" on the Island. But it's not really Locke, it's Man #2, right? Turns out that "dead is dead" after all... and it was Man #2 who told Alpert to tell Locke that he had to die... so that Man #2 could eventually impersonate him as part of his master plan! Crazy.
It makes you wonder how Widmore fits into all this. He went out of his way to help Locke and get him back to the Island, which seems to put him on the side of Man #2. But without Ben killing Locke, the plan never could have worked out. Since Ben and Widmore seem to be enemies, I don't see him being in on the plan - but perhaps he was just a poor pawn in all of this wacky action. He was being used all along.
Alpert. What lies in the Shadow of the Statue? "Ille qui nos omnes servabit", which means "he whom we all serve." Alpert also said it was Jacob who made him "like he is" (never aging). So after one episode of teasing Alpert's true intentions, it turns out that Alpert isn't all knowing - but he is a servant of Jacob. If you consider that the "good guy", then he's on the right side.
Likewise, Ilana and the Shadow of the Statue are on the same side. So right now, pretty much every character we know in 2008 (I refuse to call it 2007 no matter what you say - check Lostpedia and do the math, it's 2008) is on the same side, except for Locke and Ben. Unfortunately, that side is also without their "leader" now that Jacob is dead.
Who wants to bet that this opens the door for Widmore to return to the Island, setting up the "battle for the Island" between Widmore, Locke, and Ben vs. Alpert and our Survivors?
Survivors. Speaking of our Survivors, what now? We've been told that the "time travel" stuff ends with this season, which means they MUST end up in 2008 when Juliet causes The Incident - and it makes me wonder if that's what Jacob meant when he said "they're coming" as his last words... or was he referring to Widmore's men?
What about Juliet? Does she live or die? Logic would tell you that she would die... but the same logic would tell you that our Survivors (Jack, Kate, Sawyer) who were standing right above the Swan Hole would also be too close to survive either... and that doesn't even take into account Sayid - who unless the past is suddenly "undone" is now dead as well.
So I think there are four options:
- Juliet, Sayid, Kate, Jack, and Sawyer are all dead.
- Juliet, Sayid, Kate, Jack, and Sawyer are all alive and transported to 2008.
- Juliet, Sayid, Kate, Jack, and Sawyer are all alive in an alternate 2004 where Oceanic 815 lands in Los Angeles... and who knows where this puts Juliet.
- Juliet and Sayid are dead. Everyone else is alive and now in 2008. The past didn't change, but they did get transported back to the "present" as their work in 1977 was now done (note: this seemed to be a theme of the recap episode that aired before the finale - that they only jumped to time periods where they had something to accomplish... and then jumped out - interesting)
I will say that I was a tad disappointed in the character development in this episode. Juliet and Kate both seemed to change their emotions at a moment's notice, for now other reason than to extend the Love Rhombus further - even when it clearly should have ended with Juliet and Sawyer together, and Kate and Jack hating each other forever. It just seemed unrealistic.
So I guess that's it for Season Five. I need to reflect on the season and the finale a bit to see how I feel - but for now I stand by my Four Word Review. I don't quite get it yet - but clearly this episode sets the stage for next season.
Discuss!
139 comments:
A Great episode, but the worst finale of the five.
First!!
I thought "They're coming" referred to Alana and the shadow of the statue people, especially since Jacob had gone to her for help earlier, but I like the idea that it could mean Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Jin and maybe even Juliet. And I think Widmore actually turns out to have been a good guy ... I think he'll be on the side of Jacob, Alana, and Richard.
That was the BEST EPISODE EVER!
what about the white screen at the end.... and the Penny and Desmond scene in the ad with the words '' What did u just see ??''
seriously this was weird !!
o.O WHOA I did not see any of that coming. When I saw a NON bearded Jacob visiting everyone I thought - who was in the cabin??? I didn't think we'd see what was in the box and it would be like Locke's casket in season 4. But it was like Locke's casket except we didn't have to wait 8 months for it. I didn't think Richard was one of the shadow people, I'm all confused.
BUT I thought Sayid was still alive?? Not in good shape but didn't see him die. 8 months!! You & your wife could make a baby in that time! There's a project between seasons ;)
What was the book that Jacob was reading?
Although I agree with some of Brian's comments about Kate and Juliet changing on a dime too much, I disagree with Giant Foot -- I thought it was a damned strong finale! I'm quite pleased, but not about waiting the next 7 months.
so many questions now looking back on the season. so, was ellie on the bad guy's side? she told ben to bring everyone back - even Locke.
jack's dad is evil?
and, i guess smokey is evil too, since she (in the form of Ben's daughter) told Ben to do whatever Locke told him to do.
so much more to think about. great episode. why did Jacob choose those people???? ok, i'll stop.
am i the only one remember the penny scene with ''What did u just see ? ''
Arrrggg! The frustration of it all! I think Juliet is dead--for now. The last season of lost will most likely open with her "dead" and she may or may not reappear halfway through the season. I would hope so but I doubt it. Sawyer is just too good at holding a grudge. This is going to make for some fantastic scenes where he blames Jack for Juliet's death. haha.
So I guess the "rule" that man #2 couldn't break was that he personaly couldn't kill Jacob? It had to be someone else? I guess we're left to assume...
I have a feeling Widmore is definately a "good" guy who just got too wrapped up in the politics of it all.
And Ben? I guess he's just the forgotten twelve-year-old once again. Poor shmuck.
i think the white screen at the end was another flash
ARGH!
That out of my system, I think that "They're coming" has two meanings...the Survivors and Alana's people.
As for "What did you see?" refers to Flash Forward which is a series coming out next fall based on the novel Flash Forward (which is a pretty good SF novel IMO).
Basically something happens when they turn on a supercollider (I think), which causes all 7 billion people on the planet to pass out for 2 minutes and 17 seconds, and they get to see what happens at some point in the future (15 years or so).
FOKOF -- Are you sure Desmond and Penny were in that ad? I was skipping ahead, just noticed the slogan "What did you see?", I've seen it other times but never noticed a Lost tie in.
Oh the white screen with black letters was trippy! I wonder if it means anything like everything we THOUGHT we knew is wrong and it's all opposite like who is good & who is bad. I LOVED seeing Rose & Bernard with Vincent, they retired - sweet! Maybe they are "Adam & Eve"?
fokof - what ad?????
I missed the hour before with C&L's comments so I'm hoping they will have it online tomorrow.
i saw penny for sure... maybe just the actress
That said, I didn't realize that was Penny and Desmond at the end.
Jacob was reading "Everything that Rises Must Converge" by Flannery O'Connor. She's a fantastic writer... check her out!
Cool episode!!!
OH that ad! My husband said the chick looked like Penny, but I'm not sure if it was the same actress.
i agree Rebecca.. all we see from now was the bad side.. now we will see the good side.. thats the reason of the white screen.. i think
That ad w/ Penny was weird. I thought it might be for something else the actress will be in but I"m certainly not sure.
Are you sure that was the same cabin? I thought it looked more like the one Rose and Bernard were in, not the Jacob cabin... or were they the same?
The cabin with the ash around it was the same cabin we've seen "Jacob" in, the construction looked different than R&B's hut.
I am surprised by Brian's reaction, as I tend to agree with Judge Joe--I thought it may have been the best episode. The flashbacks alone, implying that we *are* getting an answer to "why were all these people on the same plane?", were worth the price of admission.
Brian, I think that Jacob must have wanted to die or knew he had to die. Surely he knew what was coming, and surely he could have said something else to Ben instead of antagonizing him. Since he couldn't kill "Man #2", his death and the arrival of Ilana (with Locke's corpse), whom he apparently put on that plane, could trigger people to kill "Locke".
And I think I read somewhere that the actress who plays Penny will be one of the stars of FlashForward.
The Other Brian
haaaa thats explain my pennys mystery
I'm "lost"
disapointed that Juliet is no more.. or is she? We'll see next season. My gut and logic suggests your option 4, but Jacob was awfully calm! Maybe, just maybe, he has been one step ahead of man #2 the whole time, and that Sayid, Kate, Juliet etc were influenced to come to the island to 'counter' the death with the incident? OK, So they're 30 years apart... but.. perhaps something like turning the failsafe changed things?
I do think that whatever happened, happened, or the whole 2007 parallel(sorry Brian, that's from the writers and producers of the program, who said 3 years wasn't 2.5 years? maybe they round up? It IS july 1977... but regarless of my agreeing with the math from the plane crash timeline, the writers and producers of lost always override want to be's like us.)
We see that the statue WAS the hippo, that it's now destroyed, but was not destroyed when what I assume was the 'black rock' arrived.
Apparently, Jacob likes to bring 'entertainment' to the island, and he says this is in the name of 'progress' as it 'only ends once'.
But I'm not sure how the donkey wheel plays into this.
Again, I'm horrified at the apparent loss of Juliet. She's been one of my favorite characters since she was introduced, if not my favorite. To see her NOT get back to her sister is tragic, not to mention the thought of skate.. argghh. Honestly, the thought of going through a season withour Sayid, Juliet and Locke? Probably my three favorites... And having to deal with the love triangle again.. and just having to deal with Jack and Kate.. Sounds like hell to me.
And I leave you with this bit of evidence... Alpert said that he saw them 'die', which means to me that the incident always happened, just like Miles suggested... the real question is, who is really one step ahead in the game of chess? I have to think that with Jacob visiting so many 815ers, that he's been aware of this loophole for quite a while and is one step ahead.
I do think that Man #2 was 'trapped' in that cabin. I DO think he's the man who said 'help me' and made things fly around. The big question to me is: who let him out? And is Christian really man #2?
And I want a name... and again, the simularities between widmore and ben's feud and man #2 and Jacob? uncanny.
Some other thoughts: What ever happened to the kids and Cindy? Didn't see them in that group!
And what are the whispers? Still absent for so long now. Almost as if it was forgotten.
Also, adam and eve sure seem to be Bernard and Rose... with their attirude of dying together. Still does't explain the stones.
Oh well. Honestly, I'm kind of disapointed, and with the propect of a dead Locke, Juliet and Sayid(though locke has been dead for a while now). I can wait until January.. and that shows my disapointment. Maybe I'll sleep on it.
Again, good instant analysis Brian! See you next year.
i couldn't understand the latin when i watched, so i trust you got it right. if so, your translation of "ille qui nos omnes servabit" is wrong. it means "he who will save us all"
The ad with Penny was a preview for a new series on LOST that the actress that plays Penny stars in. (Desmond was not in the preview) Does that mean that she won't be in LOST for season 6?
Man #2 has also been impersonating Christian.
I'll say one more time. I was disapointed in this episode. It may be one of my bigger finale disapointments... and to my favorite season.
Again, let me sleep on it, I may love it tomorrow.
Nice to see Vincent! Damon and Carlton had already said he'll make it to the end of the show.
Too bad we never got the vincent flashback.
And I'm thinking back to lost 'missing pieces' and the comment earlier this season by Chritisan suggesting that he's really Christian.
Another observation: Christian appeared WITH Locke, Lapidus and Sun in the same scene. That would suggest that if Locke is man#2, then Christian is NOT. And I find it odd that this faux locke and Christian didn't act funning during the encounter.
And on another note: Smokey told Ben to listen to Locke, or die... so if smokey is the 'island' protector, why does he want Ben to help Man #2, unless the Island can't see through his ruse.
Unfortunately, my channel 'froze' when locke kicked jacob over.. and did not reappear until Juliet was going after the bomb. I don't know what I missed.... is Jacob confirmed dead? Or just stabbed?
He may be able to heal himself?
And I do think there is some sort of manifestation of Locke in that body, it's not JUST man #2, but it's not all Locke, sort of like Christian is not just "Christian" but something else.
Remember, season 6 will show us Aaron... The sad part is that supposedly season 6 is more about characters that this really cool complicated sci-fi season.
I think I'm getting excited asain.
Just a thought here...
Cain and Abel (Jacob and man #2).
Also Jesus knew he had to die - always knew it, and was betrayed by a friend. There is a parallel to Jacob - maybe Jacob will rise on the 3rd day. Like I said - just a thought.
And I am so disappointed about Juliet. I am hoping she somehow survives - definitely looking forward to the next season - wish it wasn't the last.
Elaine
In the beginning the island had 2 gods: Jacob dressed in white, an unnamed god in black. The god in black wanted to kill Jacob since the beginning. Jacob wanted to bring people to the island, starting with the Black Rock. The god in black knew it was trouble, but Jacob felt it was all 'progress' no matter what happened. Since then, Richard (who probably came from the Black Rock (first 'visitors')) was selected by Jacob to be the leader of all the other people Jacob brings to the island. Collectively they are "the hostiles" or "the others". Here's more of my quick thoughts on it all:
http://rob.orangejack.com/2009/05/14/quick-thoughts-on-lost-finale/
Victor C:
Man #2 can't be Christian as Locke and Christian were in the same scene after Locke was Man #2, unless he can maintain two manifestations at the same time.
I think Christian is the island....
And I think I know who let Man #2 out of the cabin. Christian couldn't do it, so he got his daughter.. Clair to do it. But why?
I see it this way, Jacob wants people to come to the island, he want change and progress. He's a good person that has a possitive view of man, the optimist.
His antagonist is the isolationist. He doesn't want anyone coming. He's seen what happens when people come to the island and is through with it!
So I propose to you this: Perhaps man #2 is on the islands side? It's probably Jacob allowing the black rock on the island that got the statue blown up and pissed off the island. And obviously jacob can't fix the child birth thing.
So maybe the Island and smokey are on man #2's side.
Loved the ep! Some of you have no faith! At the end of season 3 I thought the rest of LOST was going to suck, but I was wrong. I can't wait to see what happens next year. I've never been a believer of "whatever happened happened". Right now I'm thinking they succeeded in preventing the crash of 815, and next season will be the "new" timeline they've created.
jacob = stabbed and burned alive
was for Steve
I think Jacob is one step ahead or else he would not have antagonized Ben, you're right. The only reason he would have visited all of the characters, saved Locke and talked that way to Ben seems to me to be that he needs these events to happen in order to somehow "save the island" even if he has to die. He may die in order to bring our 1977 survivors into 2007/2008 so that the battle can begin. That's the only explanation I can think of, he somehow brings them back to fight his battle. That was an amazing finale, and an amazing beginning of the first episode, similar to season 2 when they show Desmond for the first time. I have to re-watch that conversation.
Does anyone have any ideas about "it only ends once", that seems to be the important line in that dialogue to me.
i also agree with the optimism/progress v pessimism/isolationist theme. which is why i think 'whatever happened, happened' is not true, and man does have free will to change himself and live a better life... in season 6.
I think back to Locke from season one explaining backgammon to walt. there are two sides... one is white, and the other is black. Good (jacob) vs. evil (the smoke monster)?
Jacob was stabbed and then kicked into the fire (where his whole body was consumed by the fire). I believe Jacob was warning Man#2 that his end was comming by killing Him (jacob) Hence the evil kick into the fire.
My instant reaction (other than holy s*&#) was that Jacob set all of those things in motion so that they would change things, and prevent Locke from killing him (since they wouldn't have come to the island), but that seems to fall apart since Richard said he watched them die. Why would Alana (am I spelling that right?) bring Sayid to the island other than to get him to where he needs to be.
I don't know. I'm confused. But it was a great, great episode and this is going to be the longest eight months since the hatch door blew off.
Also, I thought the white at the end was a flash, and sent everyone to the future.
Best episode of Lost, hands down. Couple observations:
1) The sideways-hanging painting of Vincent in the cabin proves that Rose and Bernard were the ones who were occupying Man #2's cabin (and likely the ones who broke the ash circle, as well). Otherwise, there's no reason to show the Rose/Bernard scene.
2) The "loophole" that Man #2 found is that if a dead body is brought to the island, he can inhabit it with his spirit. He has done this before in the form of Christian Shephard, and now again as John Locke.
Wow, I'm dissapointed.
This was the very best season till now and sadly such a bad finale.
I thought that was a fantastic finale! It answered/addressed so many questions.
Did you notice that Jacob physically touched each one of the survivors he visited in the flashbacks? That had to have meant something.
I think Man #2 can assume the form of deceased individuals...period. Not just Locke. He seems to have used Ben's daughter as a pawn, Christian Shepard...etc. So many of those who have passed away and then visited the living have given messages that now seem to have served Man #2's purposes.
I really LOVED this finale. Very strong, in my opinion! I was not disappointed in the least!
Sorry, I have to specify:
The episode was great, the ending was mindblowing - in a bad way
I just want to put it out there that the ad for "Flash Forward" (New ABC Series) was NOT Desmond and Penny.
The actress to PLAYS Penny (Sonya Walger) has been cast in the show, and the fella' next to her is not Desmond, but rather Joseph Finnes. She likely has a development deal w/ ABC and was cast in this show. The fact that they're running promos during lost looks like it was slightly confusing.
The biggest thing about this episode for me was the polarized end credits (Black "Lost" text on White background). I think, and this is nothing more than a guess, is that the new credits are an indicator that the bomb went off and had the desired effects, so much of what we will see next season will revolve around the passengers of Oceanic 815 and their lives after successfully completing the Sydney to Los Angeles flight. And I think that we're going to find that regardless of the flight crashing or not, these peoples lives are intrinsically linked.
Just my thoughts.
Here's my running theory.
Man #2 who we'll call the man in Black (a Stephen King reference after all) is, evil. He is represented by the Smoke Monster, ALL the dead characters we've ever seen appear on the Island and now Locke. He has been trapped in the cabin and as Brian pointed out released once the circle of ash was broken.
This brings up some interesting points, what does it mean for every appearance of a dead person we've seen? If you think back to Christian appearing before Locke in the Frozen Donkey Wheel scene it was obviously Man in Black telling him to push the wheel to get him to leave the island and die, to further along his plan to find this "loophole".
Also this means that Claire is now with the Man in Black, since the last time we saw her she was leaving with Christian. It also makes sense why Smokey killed Eko. Eko was poised against Locke. He would have NEVER followed Locke around even after a supposed resurrection. Smokey/MIB/Man #2 realized they needed to get rid of him so It looked into his past and led him away with a promise of Yeman and then murdered him.
Jacob, on the other hand, as we saw, is just a man. Perhaps there is something more to this. Perhaps since the evil side can take on many shapes there is significance in the good side only having one form, Jacob. What if Jacob knew he was going to die? Perhaps that's why he calmly told Ben to make his choice. Maybe he knew when he DID die it would make Ben FINALLY chose a side (because if dead characters on island are always evil the manipulation of Ben goes as far back as him seeing the ghost of his dead mother in the jungle) and since up until this point Ben has been "taking orders" now he finally was making his own choice and he choice vengeance. The questions "why not you" is a God saying to a single man, "what makes you special? Why should you not suffer as ALL (Jack, Kate, Sayid, etc) my children have suffered in my service?"
That line of "They're coming" did refer to the Survivors but why? Because Jacob was a representation of something larger. The man was the embodiment of something greater. I believe that one of the Survivors is his replacement and just as we saw Jacob and the man in Black on the beach discussing Faith vs Science...the ongoing struggle....perhaps we'll end with Locke and Jack having a similar conversation waiting for the next group of people to begin fighting over their special island.
It's late and I should have been asleep two hours ago, sorry for the typos. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Man #2 is surely named Esau, right?
I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned this yet...
The two Lockes made me remember the "Good Twin, Bad Twin" script from season 2. The creators said at the time that it was significant - and it led us to theories of parallel universes and alternate realities. But nothing ever came of it. Until now!!!
Well, I still can't express my feelings in a proper way. My thoughts in a more detailed post:
I hate production errors and I hate bad unlogical writing. I could understand that time travel thing and I'm ok with Smokey going on the island. I'm even ok with Locke being the incarnation of man #2 (as this was a very religious episode I call him Esau).
But I hate when people like Juliet and Kate change their mind in a second from "we have to stop him" to "c'mon let's help him doing this". There can not be a rational explanation behind this (at least I'm convinced about that, I still got quite some hope in the writers).
Also, if someone falls four floors down the window and is still alive, well he got lucky. But how in hell could Juliet survive this one? She even got pulled down with the chain, so the impact should be at least twice as hard. I hate things like that. And as it's not all, the goddam bomb (why did they need such a big container if this small thing can do all the work is a question in the first place for me) did not explode after falling down on the ground, a little stone has to do the work?
Comme on. This was plain bad.
Jacob specifically convinced Hurley to come back, and Hurley brought the guitar case. Got to wonder what's up with that. Was Hurley the only one that Jacob visited *after* the O6 returned to the US?
Also, if Man #2 is embodying dead people, I wonder if he spoke to Kate in the dream via Claire to tell Kate not to bring Aaron back...
I think season 6 will be : losties try to save jacob, because he knew all this would happen and he has a plan, and all the people he touched are part of it. I guess that gets juliet out of the picture. Wonderful episode, totally unexpected !
So Man #2 was also Christian...?
Jacob acted like a jerk to Ben saying: "So what about you". Why? Why he was ignoring Ben when he was the leader? I think that was strange.. Did Widmore or Ellie saw Jacob?
Also big guestion is: who controls smokey?
After Locke got back to the island, he never met christian.
So what if man#2 is the island/smokey. Jacob is some kind of demi-god who lives there and brings people there to worship him and the island hates him for it but can't kill him. So instead man#2/smokey impersonates dead people and kills off the people jacob brings to the island. So then smokey saves little ben and starts using him. Kinda explains why ben could summon smokey but never saw Jacob. ben brings back dead locke so the island can impersonate him, then tells ben via alex to follow locke no matter what. maybe?
"Dead is dead."
"Whatever happened, happened."
"What's done is done."
What's up with all these similar lines?
Awesome finale. It had it all with great action, romance, intrigue and suspense. Very satisfying and so many questions to keep us interested till next season begins!
Look forward to hear Brian's analysis soon.
If I buy the fact that Locke is smokey, man #2, or whatever, What was up with his conversation with Ben on the way to see Jacob? Ben told him the smoke monster took the form of his dead daughter and told him to do whatever Locke asks. "Locke" seems surprised to hear this. Was this conversation just to remind the viewers what was said before, and explain why Ben would become a pawn like this? We know "Locke" was supposedly going to get a rope when Ben was judged (classic Clark Kent/ Superman setup)...
Aw, I just recalled Richard's comment to Jack in 2007: "I went to see him three times, and Locke didn't seem that special..." And if Locke is really dead, then he WASN'T really special. He was a pawn for "Man #2" from the time he was born. That's sad. It means Locke was right to doubt himself.
Of course now ALL the people on the island are pawns in the battle between Jacob and Man #2, and even though Jacob says they all have free will, he still seems to know what each will do.
And finally, if "what happened, happened," then an atomic bomb exploded on the island 30 years ago. How does this fit in with the timeline of the Dharma purge? How could the Swan still be built after so many Dharma folks were killed by our time travelers?
Lots to digest...
Did anybody realize Locke was still dead before they showed us what was in the box? Cause I sure didn't! Someone should have called it - they gave us enough clues! Mind-blowing!
And I bet I wasn't the only one who screamed when that white screen with LOST popped up at the end. I hurt my husband's ears.
JACOB IS NOT DEAD!
Steve, I don't remember Christian and Locke ever being together, at all.
Christian is Man #2.
Scott, man you beat me to it! I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps they're even brothers and Man #2's name is Esau.
That whole Rose and Bernard scene was horrible, I didn't like it at all.
First, I find it extremely hard to believe that the Others wouldn't find that cabin and Vincent gets to run around all over the place, yet is never seen. It just felt like a waste of time, or possibly just added for the fans.
Since Christian has been Man #2 this proves that Claire is still alive, since she was with him. And I'm really wondering how Aaron plays into this whole Jacob vs Man #2 battle, but it seems he's going to be very important in it.
Man do I feel sad for Locke.
There is something odd about the weaving that Jacob is doing. It's shown in both the past, during the Black Rock time, and in the present, when "Lock" comes to kill him. It reminded me of the Greek Myth of the Fates. Here is a quote
"The threads which the Fates spin are so unchageable, that, even if they decreed to someone a kingdom which at the moment belonged to another, and even if that other slew the man of destiny, to save himself from ever being deprived by him of his throne, nevertheless the dead man would come to life again in order to fulfil the decree of the Fates ... He who is destined to become a carpenter, will become one even if his hands have been cut off: and he who has been destined to carry off the prize for running in the Olympic games, will not fail to win even if he broke his leg: and a man to whom the Fates have decreed that he shall be an eminent archer, will not miss the mark, even though he lost his eyesight." (Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 8.7).
Incredible finale. Riveting and mind blowing!!!!
Great insights, Brian... first in realizing Man #2 has been in the cabin all this time, not Jacob. The Shadow of the Statue gang obviously were seeking him out (not Jacob) when they went to the cabin and saw he had escaped thru the breach in the ash.
Second, in pointing out it was Man #2 (in the form of Locke) who instructed Richard to tell the real Locke he must die!
I seem to recall someone purposely making that breach in the ash in an episode long ago... who was that?
I loved this episode---there were certainly a few logical "stretches," and the Jacob/Man #2 story changes the entire scope of the show... but it was great TV.
I need to watch it again, but what was up with Lapidus? The Shadow folks are clearly dragging him to Jacob for a reason--I think they referred to him as a candidate?
Is it possible that Jacob could end up inhabiting Lapidus (or someone else for that matter) in the same manner that Man #2 inhabits Locke? Jacob seemed awfully calm in the moments leading up to his murder... and he seemed to be preparing for it (by visiting the Lost kiddies years before). It's also weird that all of the Losties Jacob visited as kids ended up in 1977 (save Jin), while Sun and Locke (who Jacob visited as adults) are in 2008...
but it wasn't really Locke anyway. I really hope the poor guy gets some kind of fitting retribution other than serving as an all-powerful puppet for some freaky immortal dude. Oh, well! :)
Wonderful episode!
In hindsight I'm glad that I didn't read Brian's pre episode post. You're so good at what you do that I had to ignore you. A weird compliment, right? But still a compliment. I am thrilled to read the posts here again now. But it got me thinking. Promise this: for the very final episode of Lost there should be no beforehand discussion. Just sweet, silent anticipation.
This is my take on things at the end of the season:
In the beginning godly or otherwise special beings lived on the Island. Most of them disliked regular humans, thinking they were trouble. But one of them, Jakob, thought otherwise. He believed in humans and wanted them on the island. This angered the rest. But there were rules against killing each other. Thus began the search for a loophole to kill Jacob.
Many, many years later two complex series of events are set in motion.
The anti-jacobs have ways to impersonate dead people. They manipulate humans on the island to set in motion a chain of events that ends with Ben killing Jakob.
Jacob, however, knows about this. So he devices a plan, triggering another chain of events. Not one that prevents Ben from sticking the knife in him. But one that sets up the pieces favorably for what will follow thereafter. We don't yet know the details of that. But it involves Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Sayid and Sun on Jacob's side in a battle. In that battle I think our survivors will be tested. Will the love, friendship and maturity they have developed so far be enough for them to defeat the anti-jacobs?
Whatever happens next I think we can be sure that at least Miles and Chang remain in 1977 and record the Comic Con video.
Let me end by praising the Lost writers. I firmly believed that Locke was indeed resurrected. Despite the fact that we have seen beings taking the form of a deceased person before (Echo's death scene) I still didn't see this coming. The writers had already handed us the key to understand what was happening. Still I didn't see it! But once I did I loved it.
The wrap up for Rose and Bernard was delightful.
First time commenter and avid reader starting this season.
I have a feeling that Miles and Hurley are going to be playing some sort of big role. They both are apparently capable of communicating with the dead.
Jacob specifically went to Hurley. And as the writers described in the recap before the show, Hurley is one of the only characters who has been consistently morally grounded. I have a feeling that Jacob will use Hurley to combat "Man in Black"/"Esau".
I have a hard time believing that the writers will chose Esau as his name, it seems too easy. I do have a feeling that they are brothers. As with many mythological stories, there is always a dichotomy of good vs evil between 2 brothers. I think his name will be of another "evil" mythological brother.
I wonder if Anthony Cooper was in some way part of Man #2 considering how both Ben and Richard manipulated Locke and Sawyer to have him killed. Much the same way Locke (or whoever he was) manipulated Ben to kill Jacob.
I like the idea that Man #2 is Smokey. I also like the idea that Man #2 is the guy in the cabin. However, I don't think it is possible that he is both.
We all assume that the ash is what trapped the man in the cabin and that's why he asked for help when Locke visited. If he was trapped for all that time and he is Smokey, then how is it possible that he appeared to Eko and killed off other people?
It would seem to me that the man in the cabin and smokey are 2 separate beings and that Man #2 is one of them. But which one is he?
I get the feeling that Rose and Bernard might have had some other roles but once they decided to go to 16 episodes for the last few seasons, there wasn't anymore room for them. So this little segment was to resolve their storyline and say, "we're done."
Was the bomb not exploding on impact simply a plot device to create suspense or did Sayid intentionally rig it so that it would not explode?
Remember that he specifically mentioned that he rigged it to explode on impact. Perhaps Sayid thought it was the wrong thing to do and as the last act of his life he attempted to make sure that it would not explode.
I can't imagine Sayid making a mistake with a bomb, but then again the bomb was several decades old so it might have just needed a good smashing with a rock to detonate.
a few things i haven't seen other people mention yet (unless i missed it!)
1. Bernard and Rose seemed to behave extremely peculiar during their visit with Kate/Sawyer/Juliette. Assuming they also went through the flashes, just on different parts of the island, maybe they met someone who gave them some information? I just found it interesting when Kate/Sawyer/Juliette were leaving how Bernard stopped Juliette and said "are you sure you don't want to stay for some Tea?..." and gave her narrow eyes and a strange face. To which she replied "maybe some other time" as her hands were holding her stomach. Was Bernard trying to specifically hold her up? Does he know something that they/we don't? I just felt like there was something more to that scene.
2. At the very end when Jacob muttered to Non-Locke "They're coming"....I don't think he was referring to the Shadow of the Statue people, I think he was referring to Jack/Kate/Sayid/Hurley/etc. etc.
Almost as if it was a threat/step above Non-Locke's current actions. This could maybe explain why Jacob has spent so much time assembling them and visiting them throughout their lives to make sure they come back to the island?
Also, did the bomb detonation cause the destruction of the statue?
Did we ever see the statue (in any condition) in 1977?
Ben seemed to know why the statue was destroyed, but he would not reveal the reason to Sun.
What if the dichotomy isn't good vs evil, but it's life vs death? Maybe Jacob represents life and Man #2 is lord of the dead, therefore able to manipulate/animate the dead.
Mark B -- the bomb did ultimately explode on impact after Juliette smashed it with a rock.
Ribbonsand -- my bet is that this will be near the last we see of Bernard and Rose. I don't suspect any hidden meanings and C&L have said in the past that its' hard to get these 2 actors to fly in for small scenes. However, i would say, as many others have also suggested, that in the end, we'll find Bernard and Rose to the be 2 dead people in the cave.
So, the big question is what do we all think happens after the bomb explodes? Will Jack, et al, end up in the present, landing safely at LAX, having re-set time in its' rightful way?
Jack, I don't think the survivors changed anything, like Miles said, I think they created what they were trying to prevent, as it always happened.
If they somehow land safely in LAX, that means they changed the future and never crashed on the island.
Well, we clearly saw Locke's body in the present time on the island, and all the Ajira people, which landed as a consequence of the Oceanic flight crash.
So that pretty much puts that theory to rest, they didn't change anything.
oh yeah, "I'm a pices." I nearly spit out my drink, lol.
Mark B,
It looked to me like the bomb landed in soft mud/muck, so it needed help from Juliet...
T.O.B.
So I've been thinking about what makes people special. Desmond became special after the Swan Hatch implosion. He did not have direct contact with the "special matter" underneath the hatch but had enough contact to gain special abilities.
What if contact with the matter gives you special abilities? What if that is how Alpert gained immortality? Remember that the subliminal message in the Crazy Carl brainwashing scene said that "Only fools are bound by time and space". Maybe direct contact with that matter allows one to be free from time and space.
If I'm correct, that would mean that Jack/Juliet/Kate/Sawyer and Hurley would become special. Maybe that is why Jacob visited them. Maybe when Jacob warns that "they are coming" is important because our survivors are now special and pose a threat to creepy Man #2.
What about if time is always on a loop for Jacob and the Man in Black? They've been on the island with one another and they cannot kill the other person because "whatever happened, happened" and they can't meddle with time. However, the "loophole" that the man in black speaks of is actually a loophole in time, like Faraday said, people are variables and time can be changed, so by using people (Locke, Ben, Christian, etc) the man in black is able to change the events that happen and kill Jacob once and for all. The comment of "it only ends once" suggests that the time loop has been repeating for these two for a long time and has never ended, and they are waiting for the end. This is how Jacob knows so much about our survivors' lives. He brings people to the island for "progress" because he believes in human beings, like the Tabula Rasa theory of the philosopher John Locke, which is also an episode title early in season 1 I believe.
Well well, kinda new that Juliet would be a goner when her flashback was up and Jacob hadn't been present, like the with the rest.
About Man #2, Smokey, Christian, Claire, the cabin and the ash; here's what I concluded from the episode (kind of a mix between some posters here)
Season 3: Man #2 says "Help Me". Game started.
Season 4, ep 1: Now, this may be an error in timeline, I'm not completely sure, but when Hurley stumbled on to the cabin, didn't he mess up the ash? Ta da! Man #2 can suddenly get out! In same cabin Hurley sees Christian in the chair, and Man #2 peering out the window making Hurley run off (maybe he messed up the ash when he ran off?).
Now, had we seen Dead!Christian on the island previous to this? Quick look at IMDB and he has only been in Jack, Sawyer and Claire flashbacks (except season 3 finale, but that would be years after Hurley messed that ash up). So somehow that body ended up in the cabin, and now that said ashes are a mess, Man #2 can use Dead!Christian at his disposal.
Season 4, ep 10: First mission to cross off list - get Special!Aaron off island. Method: Lure mama Claire (so so very convenient with Dead!Christian laying around) away from her kid. She comes with him to the cabin and cast some sort of spell on her and/or give her some marujana.
Season 4, ep 11: When is Locke gonna show up? Come on! Man #2 is anxiously waiting for his release (snark). Locke enters, and we all know what happens here. Plan is on a roll!
Season 4, ep 14: Man #2, in Christians body, tell Michael to blow himself and the boat up. Not sure why though, it would've blown up anyway. Maybe he just wanted a change of scenery.
Later in the ep, he shows up as an apparition in Kate's house. Now as Claire. Oh dear, does this mean Claire's dead? I just thought of this. But then again, she showed up in a dream, so maybe there's a being-dead-loophole there.
Season 5, ep 5: Last encounter with Locke. Gives him one last push.
Season 5:, ep 9: Shows up in the barracks to greet Sun and Lapidus (Locke was NOT present here, so he hasn't been in two places at once.) and tells Sun she has a long road ahead. Again, not sure why, since neither she or Lapidus did anything of use on the island after this. Maybe now you're thinking, but how could he be Locke and Christian at the same time? They might not have been in the same room, but Locke was still walking around. Well, you see, Locke wasn't in the episode, so he could have easily sneaked behind a bush, dumped Dead!Locke and inhabited Dead!Christian for a couple of minutes.
So yes, that was the last we saw of Man #2 (in a body outside of Locke's that is).
About Smokey, I really really don't think Man #2 is controlling him or has anything to do with him at all. Up until Hurley messed up those ashes, Man #2 hadn't appeared (apart from that second in Man Behind The Curtain"), and Man #2 in Dead!Locke (this is getting tiresome...) in the finale seemed genuily surprised when Ben told him about his Dead!Alex encounted. Maybe Smokey just didn't know that Man #2 was walking around, and was still hoping for Locke. Or maybe Man #2 had at this point taken control over Smokey? Could go either way I guess. But I don't believe Smokey was working for anyone else than the others and Jacob prior to this.
So I guess that's that.
To Joel
Man #2 appeared as Christian in "White Rabbit", one of the first episodes of season one when Jack follows him into and through the jungle.
Why does Jacob have to be a blonde white man?
VictorC said...
"I don't think the survivors changed anything, like Miles said, I think they created what they were trying to prevent, as it always happened.
We clearly saw Locke's body in the present time on the island, and all the Ajira people, which landed as a consequence of the Oceanic flight crash."
Good point! Plus I'd like to add that we know the bomb didn't kill everyone on the island because little Ben was there, and still grows up to be big Ben -- on the island.
If I remember correctly, in 1977 Richard asks Jack about Locke. He says he's been off the island three times since meeting him in 1954, and two of those times were to visit Locke.
So I wonder what the other trip was for? It must be significant, or else why would it have been mentioned in the first place?
I'm having trouble buying into "whatever happened, happened." There was WAY too much talk about free will and choice in last night’s episode. To me, this means that peoples' actions can vary, which would change the outcome. I'm not a scientist, but I am a baker and I guess I'm looking at things in those terms. When you alter or substitute the ingredients in a recipe, you don't get the same product. The cake may look the same, but the texture or taste may be different. So while the characters’ actions may not change all of history, I would think they would have SOME impact on the future.
Ok I think I got this figured:
Both men in the beginning - one wore white, one black. Read further...
Under the statue is where Man #1 (Jacob) lives. Under the Temple is where Man #2 lives (with Smokey). This is why we see Man #2 walk out of the jungle onto the beach. He had just walked from the temple.
There was a symbol for "Anubis" on the wall of the temple when Ben went to be judged. Anubis was the Egyptian god to protect the dead and bring them to the afterlife. Anubis was always depicted in Black. Another name associated with Anubis was "Horus" - the name of the Darma leader.
The heiroglyph Anubis on the temple wall was raising "Smokey". Which means, "Smokey" is the servant of Anubis. If "Smokey" told Ben to unequivocally follow "Locke" that means "Locke" is Man #2.
When we see first see "Jacob" (man #1) he is weaving a tapesty of the Egyptian Sun God "Ra" - which would suggest that's what he represents.
"Ra" was usually depicted holding an Ankh (the symbol of eternal life) in one or each hand. Just like the complete giant statue we see at the beginning of the episode. The Ankh symbolizes the life given by the sun. In the mythos of "Ra", the sun was either seen as the body or eye of "Ra". The "eye" opening of many shows was perhaps a hint at this?
I also think the reason dead bodies had to be buried was so that their "persona" could not be inhabited by "Anubis". Claire, Christian, Charlie, Mr. Eko, Ana Lucia and Locke were never buried and have appeared on or off island to other "Losties". Everyone else who died there was buried and never been seen since.
It would explain both men - one representing the giver of life "Ra", one representing "Anubis" the protector of the dead.
Black & White, Yin Yang themes has been in "Lost" all along. Two forces of equal strength struggling with each other for power (light & dark, good & evil) for eternity. When Jack finds the two skeletons in the cave, each has a stone in their bodies - one black, one white. (I think they'll turn out to be Rose and Bernard) Charlie had a Yin Yang ring if I'm not mistaken.
I think the "Losties" have been thrown into the middle of a struggle between two eternally youthful men (like Richard) representing the Egyptian Gods "Ra" and "Anubis".
Dragos Nica:
Oh yes, forgot about that one. I guess that has to mean that Smokey is in cahoots with Man #2 after all then. And to follow 8daysawk's theory, storing him away from being buried. Right? Or something? But if we go by that theory, then why did Libby (who was well dead and buried) appear to Michael? Or was that just his own mind playing games with him?
And why the hell did Ben take Locke to the cabin anyway if Jacob was always under the statue, and Man #2 was in the cabin? Perhaps his "mother" told him.
Joel said: And why the hell did Ben take Locke to the cabin anyway if Jacob was always under the statue, and Man #2 was in the cabin? Perhaps his "mother" told him."
Man #2 has been manipulating people for a long time - Ben always thought Jacob was in the cabin when in fact it was Man #2. When Richard went to see Jacob and bring back "orders" Ben was never there, hence he never knew where to find Jacob. We now know Ben has never seen Jacob - precisely because he's never been with Richard to see Jacob. Richard knew how to gain access to the statue but he's also been in the temple (to save young Ben). I think Richard serves both Jacob and Man #2 equally.
I think Man #2 has manipulated people all along to get to the point where he can get Ben to kill Jacob. But Jacob has been on step ahead of him, influencing Kate, Locke, Hurley, Sun etc. to end up on the island to serve his ends. "They are coming" is a hint to Man#2 that "people" are coming like in start of the episode when we view the "Black Rock" offshore. Man #2 doesn't like people coming to the island but Jacob brings them for "progress" (aka man's struggle to become better). Man #2 doesn't believe in the goodness of Man, he judges them by their past actions - but Jacob does believe in man's ability to progres (faith).
It was classic Science fact vs. Faith argument - just like Jack & Locke.
How Aaron will play into all of this is unknown. And we have other loose ends to consider like Widmore and notably Desmond. Faraday's mother tells Desmond "the Island is finished with you" That's too strong a statement to be ignored.
I think we'll have some serious loose end interplay next season between "forgotten" characters this season like Widmore, Desmond, Aaron, and perhaps even Walt.
The giant statue loosely depicts "Tawaret" an Egyptian goddess who protected women during pregnancy and childbirth.
Since the statue was destroyed women have not been able to give birth on the island if its conceived there.
Claire conceived off island and Sun got off the island before she'd have died.
Statues found in Egypt depicting Tawaret don't have 5 toes as it loosely resembles a hippo, just like the island statue. I knew when we first saw it in Season 3 it would be significant later on.
1. Jacob = badass! I hope we see more of him, somehow. I know most of us are assuming Jacob is the "good" guy... but what if he was the bad guy? That would flip our whole view of the show on its head, once again. Also, its interesting how we thought Jacob to be bold, harsh and intimidaing as a leader, but as it turns out, he's more of a Ghandi.
2. Juliet is definitely dead. Let's say that the plan worked the way Jack wanted it to, and Flight 815 lands in LA. Juliet was the one to detonate the bomb, to set this in motion, and she was right next to the bomb. If she wasn't there and killed by it, the energy would not have been negated. But I guess no one is really arguing that Juilet is alive. Just my two cents.
3. Let's put Ben Linus on Death Watch 2009. Firstly, news will get out that he killed Jacob. Secondly, Richard knows that Ben killed Locke. I can't think that very many people are going to be happy with Mr. Linus. OTOH, having killed Jacob and knowing that Locke is actually dead, Ben might go on a power trip.
4. Michael Emerson had better win an Emmy award this year. He is, without question, THE BEST ACTOR ON TELEVISION.
5. I liked the references to Charlie in this episode, with Sun finding his ring, and with the guitar. Can we begin to hope and pray that we'll see Charlie next season?!
6. Is it safe to say that all the people who visited Hurley were Man #2?
7. My heart breaks for Sawyer who lost Juliet, Ben who was spurned by Jacob for 35 years, and for Locke who apparently wasn't special after all. I hope somehow he gets resurrected.
@ Ryan Hess, I like the idea of people becoming special after they encounter the energy. Would be cool to see how that would pan out.
8dayssawk!
Great analysis! I like it.
Locke was special more than we know, in that he was 'selected', by man #2 and Jacob.. jacob brought him back to life, and probably healed him, unless man #2 can do that too. If locke was going to be the loophole, why did Jacob resurrect him.
So yes, he was special in that he was 'chosen'. I would love to see him come back to life, but I do think an element of him DOES live in Man #2 locke... there is an element of Locke in him... the hunting boar.. he may be two people in spirit.
I... am going to propose that Juliet may be alive. Think about where she is, what she would be exposed to.... and now thing about someone else who was exposed to it. Nuclear explosion or not, Desmond survived an implosion!
Is it not possible that Juliet could be naked in the woods somewhere? And skipping in time?
I'd kind of like to see that actually... it could surely top the juliet vs kate wet/mud fight of season 3.
Jacob could be Jacob from the Bible. His twin was Esau, and he hated Jacob for stealing his birthright.
"6. Is it safe to say that all the people who visited Hurley were Man #2?"
I don't think so. I think Hurley can legitimately see dead people. That's what makes him special.
When Hurley said he was cursed, Jacob insisted that he was "special/blessed" in the backseat of the Taxi.
Man #2 is Alvar Hanso?
Moonman - the other time Richard was off Island was to recruit Juliette. Remember?
I am told that the Latin phrase in fact means "He who (or that which) protects us all". I have information on both the Latin and the Greek used in the episode on my blog, for those who are interested.
I wonder if it will be revealed how Ben gained all the resources he had OFF Island? Same thing for Whidmore -- will it be shown how he gain all his wealth?
Also, will it be explained where Faraday's last name came from? (Many posts suggest Whidmore was his father...)?
Take a look at the scene with the young Juliette and her family. There is a coffee table book entitled, "The Mysteries of Ancient Egypt". Interesting!
adam eve
bernard rose
white pearl black pearl
On an island where we have seen time travel, smokey, ageless Richard and Locke 2, how harmful can one h bomb be to Juliet?
I say she lives to fight another day and reunite with Sawyer.
Jack / Moonman- He didn't recruit Juliet until about 2001, so in 1977 he couldn't have told Jack that he's been off the island once for that since it hadn't happened yet
Great point Dragos! I wonder why the dialogue was writen to show Richard, back in that time, was off Island 3 times?
Seems like this implosion is the same one Desmond triggered with the failsafe key, only 30 years earlier. Jacob/Esau had been playing with this time loop, these characters, looking for a loophole or "making progress," moving pawns into place all along and this time the one found a loophole in 07 Juliet became a variable in 77-- see her cornball line "I changed my mind". Maybe she not only changed her mind in the present but w/in the course of history as well? She normally isn't in the hatch, but on the sidelines. Or they even convince Jack not to go through with it in the first place and simply die in the incident.
What we can confirm from 2004-forward about what "always" happens with the incident is that young charlotte and miles leave (therefore faraday always comes to the island to warn Chang, to stir up Jack and his mother, and to die); that Chang's hand is damaged, so he is present at the swan trying to stop the event; that radzinsky winds up in the hatch pushing the button; and that the incident happened.
I think the incident is exactly what everyone said it was-- not the bomb but the drilling, which happened before the bomb anyway. The bomb doesn't usually go off in 77-- I suspect it does in 04. Jack, trying to help, probably always made the incident worse by crashing the Swan just as Radz was calling to seal off the thing.
If that's right, one assumes adult Jack et all are usually killed in their new present by either the incident, a different version of the gunfight (w/o juliet's participation), or vengeful Dharma types after the fact. Alpert knows this and believes it still 30 years later when he reports that to Sun.
Faraday's plan would also become known after the fact via his book and Chang (and since he was trying to prevent something "cataclysmic" it stands to reason that he doesn't think the bomb itself is), the bomb is inserted into hatch as the "failsafe" and 30 years later the S2 finale ends the same way this one did: The hatch is destroyed by the bomb/failsafe.
Even if true...not sure where that lands the main characters, though going to back to what happened after the first implosion could be a hint.
I have another theory that I haven't read yet. I apologize if someone else came up with this first.
Remember when Desmond turned the key to the failsafe and was transported back in time and relived part of his life? I think that it is possible that Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, and Sawyer get to relive part of their past. Maybe this gives them the opportunity to correct poor decisions they have made. If this is true, then maybe the second time around they get on the Oceanic flight with the purpose of going to the island and making things right.
I don't remember exactly how Desmond got back to the island other than him waking up naked in the jungle. Does anyone remember?
If, as Steve says, Jacob resurrected Locke by touching him (and it sure looked like it), and also possibly healed him so he could walk again... is anyone else interested in going back and watching S1 Ep1 to see if Jacob is wandering anonymously among the survivors? I know I am! That would show some amazing foresight from the writers.
My thoughts:
1) Juliet was/is pregnant. Explains the emotion roller-coaster, grabbing her stomach, "tea" comment, devastation about her situation with Sawyer.
2) Walt needs to come back to the Island. Not sure how, but will (with Desmond?)
3) Smokey IS man #2. Remember that "FakeLocke" was NOT around when Ben saw smokey. "FakeLocke" also KNEW that smokey wasn't going to come out when Ben saw him. I agree with bodies not being buried leads to "Sickness" as CFL will call it. Versions of smokey = sickness = impersonation. I wonder what would happen if Locke's body gets buried.
4) If this was indeed the incident, then maybe The survivors got pushed to a new time, but not to 2007/8. Remember, Ricardus hasn't seen them die yet
5) Claire IS DEAD! She died last season. This means that there are two versions of dead people on the island. Smokey faking the funk and ghosts. Jack's dad could be both. Remember how Miles kept on looking at her? He was shocked that other people could also see her. She was dead and didn't know it.
6) There is no 6
7) Ben had a coming of age. Although he was a liar and a manipulator, he couldn't bring himself to kill someone directly. this is why Desmond and Penny survived, why CFL survived. All changed with Jacob's provocation
8) We shall see how Man #2 got trapped in the cabin in the firs place next season and what it means. We know smokey gets trapped the same way.
9) One big question is, however, why would Alana and Co. go to the cabin to see Jacob. It means one of two things, besides the givens that they have visited the island MANY times before and know their way around AND that they have been to the island after the cabin was built, so they aren't as old as Ricardus:
1) They were following both Man #1 and Man #2 without realizing that they were different people or
2) Jacob DID live on that cabin for a while and had multiple groups of people on separate parts at the same time (Which is why Alana has never met Ricardus). It also meant that Jacob also gets trapped by the ashes
Another point:
Neither Jacob nor Man #2 are full "Gods". maybe special, like Walt and maybe Aaron, but not Gods.
They need clothing, they need fire, they need rest, they work, THEY EAT!. Of course, this means that they could die.
I know that this is a direct contradiction that Man #2 is smokey, unless it means that Man #2 controls a remote control scanner system with a brain scanning camera that we call smokey.
Ok..that's a stretch. I can't believe I never realized that FakeLocke was fake. Props to the writers on that.
Another point to make:
How does Alana, Ricardus, Jacob, etc.. get off the island? The sub is Dharma's.
My answer: another location exists that, unlike the Donkey wheel that transports the island, it transports the person.
Do we know for sure that the polar bear ended up on the same place as Locke and Ben?
What a great finale! Don't know if it's been mentioned, but a friend of mine noted that Juliet 's house looked pretty modern, and then looked up the book on the coffee table to find it published in 1986. Could Juliet be from the future?
Drew:
I also thought it was weird that Juliett's house seemed modern, also her parents were dressed in modern clothes/hairstyles.
About the ads with Penny's actress in them:
http://abc.go.com/primetime/flashforward/index?pn=bios#t=character&d=205580
http://abc.go.com/primetime/flashforward/index?pn=index
Steve, I don't think we ever actually saw resurrected 'Locke', Christian and Sun together? My recollection was that Sun and Frank met Christian, who told them to wait for John Locke. While they were waiting, we saw Ben and Locke travel over to the main island and find Sun in the house. Christian was no longer around. Hence I agree with Victor, Christian could well be (and probably is) Man #2.
This is further supported by the fact that he encouraged Locke to die ("that's why they call it sacrifice") and was to be found in the Cabin (with Claire) which we suspect is Man #2's.
P.S. Steve it's also unlikely that Jacob 'resurrected' Locke - Richard only said that before he realised Locke was actually still dead. Seems certain that it was all Man #2's doing!
maybe s6 start how s1 begon
and thats the loop
the incedent is the start and the end of the loop
Walt’s dream: Locke in a suit on the Island, surrounded by people who wanted to hurt him.
Only… it’s not Locke. It’s the man behind the curtain, the evil twin, Man #2.
singhy...I think Steve was referring to the flashback where Jacob touched Locke after his fall and he seemed to be reviving him.
If Jacob was good, why was Ben's innocence lost after Jacob. Was this the case for Locke too?
If Jacob was bad, why didn't Jacob say: "Fool, I saved your ass when you were a kid" to Ben.
Also, Jacob was using the tapestry as an analogy to what HE has done with the characters. It takes a long time to weave characters and inter-twine them to eventually come up with the finished product.
Weaving has been used in several areas outside lost, like the Wheel of Time books or the movie "wanted"
What language was being spoken in the scene where Ilana (under heavy bandages) was being treated in the medical tent/hospital?
Singhi,
They did look outside the window to show sun 'locke', but maybe Christian had already departed? I no longer have this on the DVR. Can someone confirm if they Christian was in the room when Sun saw Locke from the window?
As for Resurrected... Skeeter is right, I was referring to when Locke was dead after his father pushed him from the window. He wasn't breathing, Jacob touched him, he took breath, and his eyes opened. Jacob said something like "I'm sorry this had to happen to you". This is very interesting as he chose to give him life, but did NOT choose to heal his spine... we know he could have done have, but it was not part of the 'tapestry'(thanks uff, I think you may have hit something). None of these past events with the survivors of 815 and Jacob were 'Good', they were to rather self-serving events for Jacob personally. He was manipulating things to suit his own self interest. Some appeared good, others were bad(nadia) or mixed(locke alive, but paralyzed).
So, I do like the tapestry analogy... he's been working for years to play his game of 'chess' or maybe 'backgammon' with the man #2. It's ben vs widmore on a larger scale.
It is possible that the star wars fans who wrote this show may use the Obi Won "strike me down and i will become more powerful than you ever imagined" plot. It may be that in the greater plan, that the loophole to kill Man #2 is that Jacob has to die to do it. Man #2 may also be a spririt.
My theory is that Jacob needs to die to 'kill' man #2, who may be a spirit more than an actual man. Because of is a spirit and the other is physical, they can't kill each other. Man #2 has to use Ben, but Jacob knows this! Which is why he's a jerk to him by saying 'what about you'. He did not run from death, he almost asked for it.
By contacting the 'shadow of the statue' people, and illana in particular... THEY are coming, and by they, Jacob now has the spiritall powers of man #2 and can fight him head on, while Jacob is the one with all the support on the island.
To quote Widmore, a 'war' is coming, and in this war, it may very well be that all of this was Jacobs plan, including his death.
He's convinced Man #2 that all of this was HIS idea, when it's actually Jacob who want to do away with Man #2.
When Alpert led the Others to the statue, fake-Locke says: "well it's a wondeful foot Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?"
To which Alpert answers that it's where he lives. At this moment, Locke seems surprised to learn that information.
Which is puzzling, since you'd think Man #2 would know this...
Maybe I am just not getting it, but even if they (Jack, etc.) felt they could change their future through these actions I am surprised that noone seemed at all concerned about all the people they had to kill to do it...
Just to comment on fakelocke's comment on the foot...
He looks surprised...but I think he is more pissed at himself.
He may have never known where Jacob 'lives'. He is pissed at himself because the first place he should have looked was the foot. He assumed other places, probably
With only 16 (?) episodes left, I wonder how much detail can be covered and wrapped up, to reasonable satisfaction, with the final season of LOST?
Victor C: Great point... fakelocke would know this... but I don't think that locke is not in fake locke, just as there is really a Christian in Christian. If this is Man #2 taking the form of these people, I think he's sharing identities, not simulating them??? I don't know how to explain it except maybe having two people in one Body?
Locke seems more 'solid' than Christian. christian apparently can't 'do' things, he can persuade, but like the donkey wheel, he couldn't actually help. That's why he needed Claire... to be his Hands... but Locke did kill a boar right? Or is he the same, needed "ben" as his hands to kill Jacob.
John:
Why do they not care who they have to kill? This is the same reason that Emily wasn't afraid of the radiatian.
They're assuming it doesn't matter, because if they suceed, then the plane won't crash and they would never have come back to kill any of them, hense saving lives.
But this is flawed on many fronts, read the statement above.. if the plane doesn't crash, then they will never be there to set off the bomb either. Add this to the future things happening with Jacob, they're happening parallel 30 years in the future. If this the fake locke story wasn't happening 30 years in the future, I MIGHT buy it as possible, but if say the plane lands would not only be a contradiction, it would make that entire story arc usless. It's NOT going to happen that way.
My theory.. ever changing.. as you all have read is basically:
Juliet blows up the bomb, which causes the incident.. rather than negating it... it's sort of a failsafe... it disipates the energy for a TIME... sort of like pushing the button.. but sends her elsewhere.. alive... as in 30 years in the FUTURE. Which means that by Jacob's "they're coming" he may be referring to Juliet, Jack, Sawyer, Kate, etc...
or, maybe he's could be referring to the harlem globetrotters, who need to beat the man #2 team to set things right with the island(if you get this reference to one of the gilligans island TV movies, and even to others, I apolgize in advance.)
John:
Why do they not care who they have to kill? This is the same reason that Emily wasn't afraid of the radiatian.
They're assuming it doesn't matter, because if they suceed, then the plane won't crash and they would never have come back to kill any of them, hense saving lives.
But this is flawed on many fronts, read the statement above.. if the plane doesn't crash, then they will never be there to set off the bomb either. Add this to the future things happening with Jacob, they're happening parallel 30 years in the future. If this the fake locke story wasn't happening 30 years in the future, I MIGHT buy it as possible, but if say the plane lands would not only be a contradiction, it would make that entire story arc usless. It's NOT going to happen that way.
My theory.. ever changing.. as you all have read is basically:
Juliet blows up the bomb, which causes the incident.. rather than negating it... it's sort of a failsafe... it disipates the energy for a TIME... sort of like pushing the button.. but sends her elsewhere.. alive... as in 30 years in the FUTURE. Which means that by Jacob's "they're coming" he may be referring to Juliet, Jack, Sawyer, Kate, etc...
or, maybe he's could be referring to the harlem globetrotters, who need to beat the man #2 team to set things right with the island(if you get this reference to one of the gilligans island TV movies, and even to others, I apolgize in advance.)
To the person who referred to the modern house for Juliet.. Are you talking about the Juliet flashback? Why couldn't that have been in 1986? It's no different than the Locke, Saywer(1976), Kate(probably what? 11? probably late 80's?), Sayid(2006). It's not as though it's a book published in 2004. So no, Juliet is from 2007 and living in 1977, she's not a double time traveller.
Steve, I don't agree with the 2 people in one body thing. Locke is clearly dead, as we saw his dead body.
The only reason Man #2 was bringing that boar is because he's been in that island watching them, he knows how they act.
So I don't agree that Man #2 is sharing identities.
Also, Christian can do things, he held that picture of 70's Dharma and gave it to Sun. Not to mention that he clearly sits on physical objects.
Man #2 only needed Ben to kill Jacob because of the rules he and Jacob have, he couldn't kill Jacob himself.
I do like your theory on Juliet though, I was also thinking she might survive and time travel as well, but I have some doubts.
Basically, looking at Desmond's experience, the same thing that happened to him also happened to Juliet. So if anything, her mind is what will time travel, not her body.
Plus, I read online that she was cast for another show. She claims that it's just as a guest, but I don't know, she might be lying.
So will she be alive next season? like you, I think there's a strong possibility, but I'm not really counting on it.
Jacob's reference to "they're coming" most probably refers to Jack, Kate, et. al. That's the tapestry (cf. above) that Jacob was weaving. That's his counter plan against man #2. Jack, Kate, et. al.'s purpose in coming back is fulfilled once they arrive back to battle man #2, fulfilling Jacob's will by their free choices.
That's the whole point of the flashbacks. We need to lay aside the idea that Illiana and her group are the "they" in Jacob's line, "They're coming."
So is young Tom, Kate's friend the same Tom that was on the island as an "Other"?
Oh, these are just my rants. If enough of us throw them out, we might hit on something..
but as for elements of two people in one form.
I'll state my case:
Christian tells locke: "Say hello to my son for me".
But why would he tell Locke that?
That as there to let us know that there WAS some of Chrisian in that apparition, if even just a little bit.
The same goes for Locke. Locke has some elements of Locke.
This is an argument that man #2 is Christian and Locke. As now that I think about it, they may have not been in the same scene.
I'm only saying that there is still an essense of the dead person.
Then there is the argment by some that the images ARE the smoke monster. Lets think about that for a second. Smokey did NOT come when Ben summoned him, as Locke was with him.
In the temple, Locke was NOT with Ben when smokey was around.
Could smokey indeed be man #2?
Evidence to support this is that smokey can flash information from someones brain, to truley make someone almost seem like who they really are. This could apply to Christian, Locke, etc.
Now I'll rant on the Aaron. He was not wanted back on the island for some reason. Could he be the next 'vessel' for Jacob? Maybe THAT'S What this is all about, he dies and is 'reincarnated' into Aaron.. or rather, takes over his physical form. We know that he's special.. right?
Steve, perhaps Man #2 told that to Locke knowing it's the only way he'll convince Jack to return to the island, which in the end it really seemed to be what made Jack start to believe what Locke was saying. And Man #2 would know this, because he was the one visiting Jack all those times as Christian.
Your theory just doesn't make any sense, man. Locke died in the real world, but somehow some of his essence goes into Man #2??? I just can't agree with it.
Also, to say that Man #2 is Smokey is quite a reach.
Ben himself said that Smokey doesn't always come the instant he's summoned. The reason I don't think Man #2 is Smokey is because we clearly saw Man #2 imprisoned in the cabin, yet Smokey was tearing it up at that same time.
That clearly proves the theory wrong to me.
As for Aaron, the person who told Kate not to bring him was Claire, in a dream. I still don't know what to make of that, because I think Claire is alive (perhaps that proves me wrong).
Why? simply because her and Christian were together, and if Christian is Man #2 then she's alive (unless Man #2 can talk to dead people). Aaron is important to the island, and I think it's Man #2 that's trying to keep him away, but again, I'm still not too sure about the whole Claire situation.
Sherilyn, no that's a different Tom. I think LOST showed him dying in one of her flashbacks, can't remember.
Hey did anyone catch the reference to the RED HERRING? Jacob caught and ate a red herring which he cooked on a BLACK ROCK? They had just referenced and seen the black rock ship when Jacob and Man #2 were talking earlier. Guess the writers were trying let us know the BLACK ROCK ship in regards to the Island is really not that consequential to the whole storyline. Any thoughts.....
sorry for my bad english
just a wild guess
i think lost is a modern version of the bibel
jacob (god)
leaders (withmore.ben.locke) try to find there jezus.locke miraculeuze concieved
michael (judas) traitor in s2 try to make it good in s4
jack (thomas) non believer now great believer
i think there is more but i dont now that much of the bibel.
help me with lucas markus ....
Time for some more thought trails.
The assumption is that Jacob & Guy #2 are polar opposites. Protagonist/antagonist pair...archnemisis, if you will.
We have learned not to make assumptions. The may want to kill each other (or one kill the other, maybe not viceversa), but that doesn't mean that one is Good and the other is Bad.
So..going with that thought, I feel that neither is "good" or "bad". They are beyond that. They have their own ideas that need to be proven to the other. Kind of like "trading places" but humanity is used instead of a $1 bill.
So, how do you get to "play" this game? you need to be special..
There is one character that we know its special and have no proof that its good. Plenty of proof that is bad, however. Walt.
He started the fire so they couldn't leave. He attracts animals, or at least birds, that probably kill themselves by flying into walls (I know that someone will go off a tangent here and talk about migrating birds and magnetism and homing pigeons, etc...). We knew that Michael didn't want to be around him, at least at first. He even tried to commit suicide. Maybe it wasn't the guilt of killing two people..maybe it was something else..we don't know. We knew that he gave people "the creeps". Juliet was afraid of him..
He can appear in different places, according to the first set of seasons.
Why can't Walt be another Jacob? or better yet, Jacob's way out. How did he know Locke was looking at him?
Food for thought...
here is another...common theme...people survive explosions/events when flashing & ghosts are around. Maybe you get warped halfway around the world, maybe you go back in time.
Guess who did this? Michael. Still alive mon amie!
What was the other theme that no one is talking about? The fact that the "island" keeps you around, even outside the island, if you are needed. How can the island do this? Walt again...
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