Wednesday, April 29, 2009

"The Variable" Instant Reactions!

Brian's Two Word Review: Holy Crap.

Maybe I'm a little rusty after spending a week without thinking about Lost, but keeping up with this week's episode definitely required about 100% of my brainpower, further confirming that there is absolutely no way that anyone is still watching (and understanding) Lost unless they are uber-obsessive nerds like us.

Having said that...

  • NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I know that I had Daniel Faraday on the DeathWatch 2009 List after pre-analyzing the episode, but I never thought it would happen before the Season Finale (since I was banking on him causing the whole "Incident" thing). Holy crap. Is he actually dead? Based on next week's episode preview (featuring Jack having Faraday's journal in his possession... and trying to intrepret it), I think the answer is pretty obvious - although one does wonder why Alpert couldn't just take him to the Temple like he did for Young Ben to magically heal him.
  • Eloise Hawking basically killed her son for the Island. Holy crap. Widmore's comment that he "sacrificed his relationship with Penny" for the Island suddenly seems a way easier. Think about it - from the point of Faraday's birth, Ms. Hawking knew that she would put him on the path that would end with her shooting him. The interesting thing here is that based on Faraday's comments to Jack this episode (about people being "Variables"), Ms. Hawking could have done just one or two different things to prevent Faraday's death... but chose not to. Why?
  • There's just an insane amount of things to analyze and think about from this episode. Initially, I'm thinking that Faraday is wrong about being able to change the past - simply because we've seen too many split-second decisions and actions by our Survivors that should have "changed the past" so far this season - but didn't. Whatever happened, happened. It all has made sense up until this point - but if suddenly ANYONE can change the future by doing something diferent in the past, it's one helluva coincidence that everything has played out the way it has.
  • It turns out that Faraday is Ms. Hawking and Widmore's love-child. Which means that Penny and Faraday are brother and sister (or at least halfies)... too bad Faraday died before they could realize it (kinda like Claire maybe died before she and Jack could discuss their relationship). 
  • The biggest question I have from this episode - and the first thing that Kate should have asked when Faraday told her and Jack about his plan is "What happens if you succeed?" Would our Survivors suddenly "skip" back to 2004, with Oceanic 815 finishing its flight as normal? Would they "skip" back to 2008, having lived different lives from 2004 to 2008 that they may or may not have memories of? Or would they "skip" back to 2008 retaining full memories of everything that happened with the Island? It's all very confusing...
  • Which is why there is no way it's going to happen. Again, we'll see if this thought process changes once I think about this episode some more, but right now there is no way the writers go through with this storyline. It would cheapen everything we've seen in the past four seasons (by making it not happen) and bring back to life characters who have died (and with characters like Michael on other shows, clearly it's not in their contracts). No way it happens.
  • Something else to think about? How did Ms. Hawking and Widmore know so much about everything? Did the Others really have some way to "see into the future"? Because even though they experienced running into Faraday and our Survivors in 1954 and 1977, they didn't seem to get enough information to know as much as they do. And what about Ms. Hawking's comment about suddenly "not knowing" what was going to happen to Desmond? Is Faraday right? That now that he has told Jack and Kate about being able to change the future, the one that she and Widmore have "seen" may no longer come true? It makes my head hurt.
  • The Jughead returns! And apparently it's stored in the Temple? And was that 2008 Ben in the Temple who 1977 Jack runs into? Is the Jughead going to end up causing the Incident? Or will it play out as it always did with the Others digging too deep and releasing a ton of energy? And what about Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest of our Survivors? Things are looking pretty bleak for them. It seems like it's all going to be up to Jack and Kate to save the day (for now) - which is kinda fitting since you could argue they are the two "main characters" on the show, who have had backseat roles for most of the season. And what about Locke, Sun, and the Ajira 316ers? Are they going to have any purpose this season besides setting up the next? Are Locke and Sun really going to be involved in bringing our Survivors back to the present (one would think they have to - otherwise their season storylines seem pretty lame), but it seems like it's all going to be resting on things that happen in 1977 right now, doesn't it?
Enough of my yapping. I need to let this episode sink in a bit and revisit it. But first I need sleep. Aren't vacations supposed to be restful?

76 comments:

Andre said...

Fantastic recap. That was a good episode, but it seems like they're cramming a lot in to each one lately.

Youu're right. Changing things and sending them to a non-crash 2004 is cheap... and th sudden ability to change things is too.

Rebecca said...

I guessed that Widmore was Miss. Hawking's baby's daddy since we figured out she was Daniel's mom in 1954. :D I didn't see Daniel dieing, especially being shot by his mom! Maybe she still thought "whatever happened happened" and he was going to tell her (in 1977) that she could be a variable but she was too quick & good a shot. Also, why would she shoot to kill even if she didn't know who he was. She obviously knows how to use a weapon & could have shot him in the arm or leg to question him later. SAD. My theory this season has been they have somehow been doing this over & over (plane crash, time skipping, etc) but Dan finally figured it out & the finale will be flight 815 in 2004 landing in LA so our beloved Charlie is still alive and Kate goes to jail lol. I don't think they'll remember the island because in their present they wouldn't have gone there. This time stuff makes my head hurt sometimes though so I'm not sure. I can't believe we're almost at the end of the season but this was a great episode.

cjhadley said...

I think that whatever happened happened is still the answer for time traveling. here is a good example of why you can't change the past

just say that you went back in time to stop boothe from killing lincoln. the whole point of you going back this time period would be to stop the murder, however, once you stop it you would not have a reason to go back in time and the murder would still occur since you would not have went back in time.

I think that the incident is going to be the survivors setting off the bomb and that is going to make the button having to be pushed. so whatever happened happened. its just that the survivors caused the incident instead of dharma and the survivors have always been the cause of the incident.

Joyce Saenz Harris said...

I can't believe Faraday came out and told Dr. Chang that Miles was his grown-up son from the future -- and Miles denied it! Funny thing was, you could see that for a second, Dr. Chang was kind of willing to consider that it might be true. But once Miles denied it, Dr. Chang decided Faraday was a nutcase. If Miles hadn't denied it, wouldn't everything that happened afterward have been different?

Jeff said...

Very likely we have seen the last of Desmond...perfect symmetry with Daniel's story / life seemingly ending from the Constant to the Variable.

Gnolog said...

Oh no no no. The island is not done with Desmond yet... I hope.

Andrew said...

Um... So when did faraday and chang film the Dharma video from comicon? We were promised more about that.

Becca said...

I thought that Desmond's comment, "I promised ya Penny... I promised ya," was foreshadowing. I don't think we're done with him either.

Sam said...

for a moment i thought Faraday was going to shoot Richard, which would have been awesome to see the consequences

Sam said...

i think the series finale (not this season, but next) should be Alpert's back story, since he has experienced everything. that would be kind of a cool way to get a lot of answers, and see things from a totally different perspective.

Steve said...

In the ultimate irony of 'whatever happened, happened', what if 'jughead' IS the failsafe? Sure, I don't know how am h-bomb explosion would be a flash of purple light, but shoot.. maybe they build the swan AND the failsafe.

Erin Blair Gobin said...

I could see an ending where the survivors detonate Jughead and destroy the island in 1977, but instead of dieing they "come to" on Flt 816 and land in LA. The Dharma folks die - but they were going to in the Purge anyways. And the Others too - but who cares? Juliet and Desmond would never travel to the island to begin with.

Just my theory - we'll see how it pans out!

Will be interesting to see how Sawyer and Juliet get out of this very sticky situation in order to join the other survivors.

I'm ready for the Shadow of the Statue folks to make another appearance!

timcourtois said...

1. Don't think Faraday is dead. Besides Andrew's comment about him still needing to film the video w/ Chang... haven't we seen this trick on LOST before? Haven't we learned our lesson? If we don't SEE the person die, HE'S NOT DEAD! Too many times I've thought somebody was dead just because they got shot & were gasping for breath at the end of an episode.
2. What's up with Eloise suddenly being regretful? What happened between her manipulating everyone to go back to the island, and Desmond getting shot to make her question herself so much?
3. So... blowing up an atomic bomb on the island is Faraday's plan? Er... that seems like a bad plan. But I still think the past can be changed. You really think the end of the show is going to be everything just happened as it always happened? That's so 12 Monkeys, so boring.

pfmbsantos said...
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pfmbsantos said...
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pfmbsantos said...

My main argument for Faraday not being dead it's that I think IT IS him talking with Dr. Chang in that recording.

My guess is that he will be "out" enough time so he can't say anything before the Incident happens.

But I do think that in some way his mother will not see him recovering from the shot. Therefore, "Present Eloise" DID actually think that "1977 Eloise" killed her own son.

borg said...

I think I must have missed something. Brian, what were you referring to when you mentioned 1977 Jack running into 2008 Ben? I don't recall that seen.

Lizzy said...

Could the journal that Eloise gave Daniel as a graduation present be the Black Rock Journal? Or was it just a blank journal that he filled with his plan to stop the future from happening?

Joyce Saenz Harris said...

@borg, I think Brian was talking about a scene from the next-week preview. That ep is titled "Follow the Leader," and rumor says it focuses on Richard Alpert. I hope so! I would love to know more about him...

Hobbes said...

Holy Crap!?! Absolutely "Holy Crap!"

lost and back again said...

Holy crap! Hey, that's what Hiro said on Heroes this week. And he had nose bleeds from time traveling too much. But I digress.

Holy crap is right!

If anything goes wrong, Arthur Fonzarelli will be my Variable.

lost and back again said...

Is Eloise Hawking Penny's mother, too? Are Penny and Daniel twins separated at birth?

If Sawyer and Juliet escape and manage to get to the beach (where they told Jack and Kate to meet them), will they hop into a canoe there and chase themselves? Will Juliet shoot herself?

jack said...

very little doubt that it was Faraday filming Chang in that doom and gloom video. if so, Richard resurrects him. easily best episode of this season and maybe the best one ever!

jack said...

Also....did the LOST logo morphing into an (product integration) ad for upcming Star Trek flick bug anyone?

Kris C said...

Lost and and Again: LOVE the theory on Penny & Daniel being twins separated at birth. Has she ever mentioned her mother?? They could be around the same age.

smacky said...

"If Sawyer and Juliet escape and manage to get to the beach (where they told Jack and Kate to meet them), will they hop into a canoe there and chase themselves? Will Juliet shoot herself?"

Oooooh, good theory. Don't want to lose Juliet, but that would clear the way for the Kate & Sawyer reunion (which I think we know is coming).

I hope Faraday lives too, but I'm not too sure about his chances.

One thing I immediately thought of is maybe Kate will ultimately sabotage things if it looks like the plan will work, because if it never happens, she's back on a plane handcuffed and going to jail for murder. As long and hard as she fought to stay free, I can't see her willingly letting that happen.

VictorC said...

Wow, what an awesome episode!

Eloise chose not to save her son because she believes the whole "destiny" thing wholeheartedly, she believes it had to happen.
Plus, if she didn't send him to the island they would never discover the island's true potential for time travel. I agree with your theory that Faraday was the one who discovered all those "advanced" formulas he mentioned to Chang. And not to mention the Lamp Post.

I was also surprised at Alpert lying to Faraday about Eloise not being there, she was right there in the camp, why the need to lie?

J-Bos! said...

I thought maybe Faraday dying/getting shot was an example of course correction and Faraday's theory was simply a desperate man manipulating his research in the hopes of saving Charlotte. I'm not totally convinced that he's dead but who knows. I certainly didn't see it coming.

Great episode. It will require a re-watching.

When Faraday got the journal from Eloise, I was hoping it would be the "filled-out" version, not a blank one, and she would explain that he sent it to her from the past/future and that's what kick-started him into time-travel experiments.

Steve said...

No way they are going to uncrash 815...

Reason? In a podcast last year, in response to a time travel question(probably to 'the constant' they stated specificaly that they will NEVER EVER send someone back in time to change the past so that the event in the future that sent the people to the past in the first place no longer existed. They HATE that type of time travel, and quite honestly, i don't even like the idea that we have an arc based on it.
It's totally out of character and very weak.

Maggie said...

What a crazy episode. I think it is clear though that you can not change the past. Daniel goes to the Other's camp so he can get the H Bomb and change the past. But, since Eloise knew she was going to shoot him that whole time, it means that Dan has always come to the camp looking for Eloise and he always gets shot. What I gather from that is that Daniel believing he can change the past always happens, and what ultimately leads to his death. I think it stands that you can’t change the past.

Steve said...

Penny is not Elloise's child.
My reasons? Widmore was exiled for having a daughter with an outsider. Elly is not an outsider.

The interactions between charles and Elly stated that Widmore was the father, but apparently didn't do anything to take care of him.

We also see the level that Elly and Charles are willing to go for the island. We saw that Charles actually seemed to care about Desmond.. WOW... so he's been treating him like crap to help the island? He's had no relationship with her because of the island. Elloise sacrificed her son for the island. And Ben lost his Daughter for the island. Shoot, widmore admitted that he dug up those graves and place the plane crash! WOW.

What I'm find interesting is that of the three, Ben may have the most concience about this. Charles and Elloise did not blink for what they did, but Ben did. Does this suggest a heart in the man?

I also want to get into another plot hole. A really bad one in my opinion. 815 crashed because of not pushing the button, but didn't elloise say that it was just a matter of flying over the right event at the right time? Ajira didn't go down because of not pushing the button.

But we do now know that pushing the button DOES do something.

Eric said...

I don't think the past can be changed. Even accounting for free will, whatever happened happened. If you think of our brains as computers, provided certain inputs certain outputs (decisions) will be reached. Unless the inputs are changed the outputs will stay the same. So the only way to change history is to change history.

As an example right now I am trying to decide whether to type the number 1 or 7 at the end of this post. Given everything I know now I am going to reach a decision. The only way to change that decision is to go back and change the inputs, which means to go back to before I type it and provide additional information to me. Without the ability to do that I am always going to come to the same conclusion.

Everything that happens effects everything else. The key is internal consistency. Mrs. Hawking did everything she did knowing what she knew. If she did something different things would have happened differently but she did things the way she did them. That does not negate her free will, it just says that things happened the way they happened. If anything had changed everything else would have changed and history would be different. But with the information she had she made the decisions she did and everyone else made their decisions and that is how things happened.

This does make my brain hurt and I am having a difficult time explaining it. It makes sense in my head though.

7

Eric said...

To expand on my last comment... If the Losties detonate the bomb and the plane never crashes then they are never on the island and never go back in time to detonate the bomb thus their plane crashes as it originally did.

The currently accepted way to resolve paradox like this is to say that by changing something (detonating the bomb) a new timeline is created and the old one stays the same. Some physicists think that everything that happens creates a new timeline. However this is just a theory, and it is a confusing one, and I don't think that Damon and Carlton would put something confusing like this into the show, especially given their stated desire to avoid paradox.

The past can't be changed. Whatever they try to do to change it just contributes to what happened because that's the way it is. It's basically the Slaughterhouse-5 theory of time travel.

Daniel said...

I'm with you Eric.

Sam,
I too thought just for a second though, "what's gonna happen when Alpert gets blasted?".


It's gonna be totally cheap AGAIN if Faraday lives.

mark said...

what a mind mixer episode!

i remember reading somewhere in an interview with carlton and damon that as unpopular as radinsky is now, he will end up doing something even worse... i'm going to go on record with a wild prediction.

i think radinsky will end up killing juliet.i think miles, jinn and hurley will help sawyer and juliet escape from radinsky and the dharmites, and in the process of trying to get away, juliet will be shot. if you think about it, even though i have really grown to like juliet's character, her story arc seems to have run its course. and think about the effect her death would have on sawyer.

just another wild theory to throw out there...

Andrew said...

I agree. I think juliet is very high on the deathwatch list.

katiela said...

re: Faraday's voice in the Comic-Con video with Dr. Chang - that was bothering me, too (how can he make the video with Chang if he's DEAD?) but I read somewhere else online today that the Comic-Con videos are not considered "canon", so we can't rely on them for information....

Tommy said...

It looks like what's going to happen with the H-Bomb and the Incident is akin to what happened with Sayid. Sayid thinks that he's back on the Island for the destined purpose of killing Benjamin Linus, in order that Ben doesn't inflict the evil that Sayid knows he will. However, Sayid's shooting Ben is the very cause of Ben's becoming and inflicting evil, the evil Sayid intended to preclude.But here's the thing: KATE should have realized this! So should have Sawyer, but with what Daniel is saying now, it should have clicked for Kate! "Wait a sec--this is exactly what Sayid was thinking, and I HEARD FIRST HAND how Sayid caused Ben's innocence to be gone."

Finally, I thought Faraday's reasoning for why he now thinks he can change he past was pretty lame. He just came to the conclusion that we have free choice, that free choice can change things?? That logic sure wasn't convincing to him before. They could have at least had Faraday throw out some big physics words to make it more believable (even if more fantastical).

VictorC said...

For those that think Faraday is alive simply because of the comic-con video, check out this quote from a Lostpedia interview with Damon Lindelof (1 of the executive producers, writers and creators of the show):

Damon: ... "I think some people believe that they hear Faraday's voice in the Comic-Con experience. These events are sort of partially canon but more promotional than they are canon. Giving the audience a sneak peak as to what the season is about.

Alex: A foreshadowing of what was coming basically?

Damon: Right

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lostpedia_Interview:Carlton_Cuse
_%26_Damon_Lindelof

jack said...

hey....what does "canon" mean?

timcourtois said...

A couple thoughts about Faraday:

1. So, he knew a catastrophe was coming, and his plan was to arrive on the island with 6 hours to spare? That's either bad planning, bad writing, or a big fat lie. Which brings me to point 2:

2. Faraday is a big liar. Never believed the whole "we can't change anything" idea. And now he's trying to manipulate events and change the course of time. But remember: He's not really concerned about the 815 survivors. He's doing whatever he thinks he can to save Charlotte. That's it. That's his prime directive. I don't trust him.

timcourtois said...

P.S. I think Daniel knew he was going to get killed. Who walks into a camp full of people with guns, brandishing a tiny little pistol, leaves his back exposed, and threatens everybody? That's someone who's getting shot on purpose.

He just didn't know who was going to do it.

Gnolog said...

If Faraday is indeed dead... I have to admit that I'm very disappointed that we didn't get to see him use Desmond as his constant, or to what extent that statement entails.

It would be weird to have the writers tease us like that (the end of The Constant) only to never deliver.

jack said...

Can anyone explain how they think Daniel knew the exact timing of events to occur on the Island? More specifically, how did he knew exactly when Dr. Chang's Jeep (to the minute) would be pulling in?

I suggest that Daniel somehow must have managed to time-travel to witness what would happen when.

Also, why was he so very curious about how Jack and company got to the Island in the context of all that Daniel had to deal with himself once he was on the Island?

Finally, can not really understand how Eloise knew what Daniel's fate had to be when he was a young boy if the experience of killing him never yet took place.

VictorC said...

Jack, keep in mind that they're in the 1970's, Faraday's death did already take place.


Does anyone know why Alpert didn't recognize Faraday??
I mean, he spoke to him in the 50's (if I remember correctly) with the whole Jughead fiasco, so why doesn't he remember him in the 70's?

Lizzy said...

Do you think that Daniel was born on the Island? I have never really been sure how old he is. But maybe everyone that is born on the Island has a gift-Miles can talk to the dead and Faraday is a super math-physics genius. Both gifts are put to use in a qwest to "save" the Island from someones standpoint-maybe the Island gave them these gifts at birth already knowing thier destiny.

Sheebs said...

Farady isn't dead - at least not yet. Eloise told Penny that for the first time in a long time she doesn't know what happens next. The only way she could know what happens is if Faraday told her. None of the other characters have any reason to fill her in, and they don't exactly have a history of being forthcoming with information, even with each other.

All of the speculation about how time travel "really" works is fun, but since there is no real time travel, it's kind of moot. To our best knowledge, in this show, "what happens, happens." However the alternative, a mutable past can certainly be supported. Tie in quantum nondeterminism to free will and you're good to go. It actually nicely parellels the dichotomy between Jack and Locke. Jack is (was) a skeptic: things happen as they have to happen according to the rules. Locke believes in a higher purpose, that there is a will guiding events. Since Jack is coming around to Locke's point of view, I suspect that we will find out that the past is actually mutable.

Hobnail_Boot said...

I really wish you hadn't included spoilers in your instant reactions.

jack said...

VictorC....this is where the notion of time travel can get dicey so far as any type of linear, TV story-telling.

How did Faraday's death already occur? At best, I can understand a dynamic, such as happened with Desmond, whereby Eloise is "enlightened" of an event that happened in the past but only in her present mind. Remember? Desmond, in the present, suddenly was enlightened that Faraday gave him instructions to seek Eloise's help. Again, that insight would not have affected Desmond's life until it struck him in the present.

How would Eloise had known her son's fate decades before the event actually occurred?

Brian said...

hobnail_boot - Sorry, I really don't consider discussing what was shown in next week's episode preview as a "spoiler". In the past, I've tried to avoid (or warn) before I referenced them, but in this case felt like there was some pretty compelling evidence there in the "is Faraday alive or dead?" debate that I needed to include as a large part of the Instant Reactions.

I'll try to warn better in the future.

Tommy said...

Jack-

Eloise Hawking as a young woman on the island shot a man in the back. As the man wan was dying, he revealed that he was her son. Years later, Eloise has a son, and she realizes this son will be the same one she shot in her past.

(This understanding by Eloise becomes even clearer if we assume that at some point early on Eloise learns about time travel and the space-time continuum, and that whatever happens happens, hence her penchant for "purpose" and "destiny.)

VictorC said...

Exactly Tommy, Jack you have to understand that even though Faraday just time traveled to the 70's and got shot, he's still in the 70's!
Technically, he got shot and died before he was even born.

Nick R. said...

They are already changing the past. Who would Hawking of shot if Faraday didn't come back in time?

J-Bos! said...

VictorC - I took ti that Alpert did sort of recognize Faraday (he asked "Do I know you?" or something to that effect. The jughead stuff takes place almost 25 years prior to this so I could see Alpert - having only a couple of seconds to react - to only recognize him but not sure from where.

Once Faraday mentioned Jughead, I took it that Alpert DID recognize him but was dealing with a gun being pointed at him.

Brian - no need to apologize. Commenting on a preview or commercial or whatever else is not a spoiler. It's speculation. It's what we're all doing here.

The Giant Foot said...

Nick. They're not changing the past. Faraday was always shot by Eloise. She couldn't have shot anyone else. It's the same thing as the whole season. Whatever happened, happened. The murder of Faraday not withstanding.

So the question of "Who would Hawking have shot if Faraday didn't come back?" is moot because he always came back. Do you understand?

Andrew said...

J.J. Abrams side note: Saw an advanced screening of Star Trek last night. It was phenomenal!! Abrams totally nailed it. took a star trek fan and a guy who had never seen it, and me who is somewhere in between and we all LOVED it. Wish Abrams had directed the newer Star Wars movies.

i was wondering about the comicon video being canon too, except i saw an official Lost video podcast where the actor who plays Faraday said there's another half to the video. Either they canned it or he's alive.

I also agree with my good friend tim that I think Faraday knew he was going to die. I loved it when he asked for a beginner gun. :-)

Rob Rose said...

The reason why Hawkins and Widmore suddenly don't know whats going to happen is because The Survivors in the 1970's probably end up telling them everything thats going to happen... and now that The 815ers are back in the 1970's in present time.. everything that the Losties tell Hawkins and Widmore has ALL finally happened.

They were never told what happens next because the LOSTeries didn't know yet in '77

jack said...

Tommy - your post could not have been better written - much appreciated. It is a hard concept to wrap your head around though given that Daniel was shot and presumably died before he was born!? But I think your explanation is likely what C&L would have us believe as being one of the fundamental "laws" of time travel as it relates to LOST.

VictorC said...

J-Bos I hear ya, even though 20-some years have passed, I still found it odd that Alpert didn't remember him at all, so much that he had to ask if he knows him.

I mean, think about it. It's not everyday that someone drops into the island, knowing precisely about your hidden nuke, and then telling you how to disarm it.
That's the kind of thing you don't really forget, in an island where not many new people come along anyways (excluding Dharma of course).

Dave Harty said...

But in 1977, Ellie maybe had not even had Daniel yet and had certainly not convinced him to get on the freightor yet. So that part of "whatever happened" had not happened yet.

So therefore, the events in 1977 predetermined, our created a path of destiny for the future (see Ellie telling young daniel about "destiny" at the piano).

This event is the exact opposite of the Sayid/Ben shooting. In this case someone in the past clearly can affect the future.

Daniel said...

yes they can affect the future, but as far as we know, only in the way they have always done.

Whatever Happened, Happened

Rob Rose said...

Judging by the way that Young Eloise was acting in the first scene with Daniel and the Piano, I'd have to say that scene (IN TRUE LOST FASHION)actually took place only a short amount of time after she had shot Grown-Up Daniel.

Hawkins must realize that if Daniel didn't study his whole life about all this stuff and end up on the island, than whatever he does to save the island, would never happen. So she realized she HAD to kill him in order for the island to be saved.. FUCKIN LOST MAN.

Tommy said...

Jack--

No worries. I was in the exact same spot as you a couple weeks ago until it clicked. For me, it's something that I can't think about too much.

I think the sayid-ben episode made it clear for me. Sayid thought he'd change history by killing ben as a kid. But then we find out--sayid all along was the agent for ben becoming evil! There's one thread of time.

(People argue, "Well, what about free will??" but there have been very sophisticated philosophical arguments in favor of the fact that decisions are free as arising from personal agents within time, but if one could view such decisions outside of time, from a detached vantage point, one would see those choices of having a sort of fixed status in time. In other words, you freely choose within a tapestry, but that tapestry of free choices has a definite, unchangeable character. I'm not saying you have to buy that, but that there are some bright minds who have advanced complex arguments in support of it.)

The problem with this "whatever happened, happened" theory with regard to the show is that it could be a really boring season finale if Jack and Kate and co., in an attempt to prevent the incident, end up causing it. That's what we should expect, right? If that happens, based on what we know at this point, we should shrug our shoulders and say, "Well, of course that happened."

VictorC said...

Tommy, we always knew the incident happened, but we just didn't know how or why.
That's really the exciting part about it.

And like every other LOST season finale, I know that this one will end with our jaws on the floor.

Daniel said...

the trick is to make a decision that is different than the one they have always made, but they can't know what they always did. They may have always tried to change the future in the same way every time.

Then the next problem is stupid "course correction"

Daniel said...

Right on Vic. When have we ever been satisfied with the answer to one of the shows questions? It's the twists revealed in those answers that are the best (and most infuriating) things in the show.

Mrs. McGoo said...

I concur that these are pretty much all the same questions our "LOST group" discussed after watching the episode.

Tommy said...

Vic, I'm with you. It will be great to see how the incident occurs. My point is that the motif of characters creating the very past they're trying to change is beginning to feel a bit worn out.

Tommy said...
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Dragos "Poetru" Nica said...

I think Hawking couldn't see Desmond's future because he's "special" like Faraday said he was when he asked him to go find his mother. Desmond may be the only one capable of changing the future or the past.

jack said...

in the scene where Eloise walks to young Daniel playing the piano, she is teary and evidently shown to have been crying. I would think this illustrates that she always knew, as older Daniel said in his final few breaths after he was shot by her, that her job will be to insure he ends up on the Island to meet this fate.