Wednesday, March 04, 2009

"LaFleur" Instant Reactions

Brian's Four Word Review: Pretty Nice Little Episode.

Ironically, probably the most talked about portion of this episode is probably going to be the three second view of the Four Toed Statue (from behind) - but the real highlight of the episode for me is that it harkened back to Season One. After weeks of having a TON of mythology, storyline twists, and puzzling revelations - this week was a nice little episode focused on CHARACTERS, just like in Season One. As a result, there's not a ton to over-analyze this week. This will be short and sweet!

  • Sawyer is flat out awesome. He's now hooked up with both Juliet and Kate (who does he think he is, the Bachelor? Topical!), proven that no mater how hard he tries to be a tough guy, deep down he's a softy and heroic leader.
  • Thank God we can finally put to rest the ridiculous notion that Sawyer will become the four-toed statue. It appeared to be a traditional Egyptian-type statue, holding those Egyptian Crosses (with the loop at the top).
  • Speaking of which, this was the same necklace that Amy kept from Paul. Also known as the Key of the Nile, the Looped Tau Cross, and the Ansate Cross. It was an Ancient Egyptian symbol of life and fertility. Sometimes given a Latin name if it appears in specifically Christian contexts, such as the crux ansata ("handled cross"). Hmmm - is there some connection there?
  • Alpert knew Sawyer in 1974. As I was wondering in the episode previews, what are the reprecussions of this once 2004 rolls around? Again, he knows that Sawyer will not die from 2004 until 2005 (when the skipping starts). I wonder how this affects the decisions that Alpert and the Others made in regards to dealing with our Survivors.
  • Initially, when Alpert stormed into the Barracks, I thought "Oh God - Sawyer and Juliet are responsible for the Purge! They carried out the Purge as payback for two of their own getting shot!" But it seems like Alpert accepted taking the body of Paul as retribution... but what did they do with the body?
  • Who is the baby that Juliet delivered this episode? Born in 1977, it would be someone aged 27 on the show. I'm racking my brain thinking of characters that apply, but no major characters are coming to mind.
  • Since that baby was able to be born on the Island, time to open back up the theories that Ben somehow changed something on the Island - see my Cowboys and Indians theory! The Others got "out of touch" with the Island, and thus could no longer have babies!
  • I'll say it before and I'll say it again - where have Rose / Bernard / Vincent been for the past three years?!

Regarding next week's episode (note: stop reading now if you don't want to know what we saw in the preview!)

  • Sayid did skip back to 1977! That means only Sun, Ben, and Locke are in 2008, and all the rest of the Oceanic Six went back in time. Pretty cruel, fate - prety cruel.

No new episode next week (not sure why), so we've got a one-week breather. Also, after watching this episode, it turns out that some "Anonymous" poster got cute and spoiled the episode this week. I'm not sure how to combat that stuff from happening other than eliminating anonymous posts... so from now on, you have to fess up to your comments!

I predict pretty light discussions this week. Prove me wrong!

91 comments:

Caralyn said...

Does this mean that Ben knew our survivors when he was taken to The Hatch?

Caralyn said...

Gosh, I should have said THE survivors, not OUR survivors. I may be getting fantasy confused with reality. :)

VictorC said...

Brian, I could be wrong, but in the episode preview I thought I saw Sun in a Dharma jumpsuit, so she's not in 2008.

What did the anonymous person say to spoil the episode? I must have missed it.

DC said...

You can probably have it set up so you have to approve all of the comments....but that would be a pretty heavy burden on you.

Eric said...

I don't think Sun was in a Dharma suit, just a tasteful tan pants suit.

It's not clear to me yet how Ben fits into this timeline. When he arrived on the island in his flashback many moons ago, I figured it was the mid-70s. But wasn't Horace married to someone named Olivia then? That must be after this time, unless we are delving into alternate timeline territory. So yeah, Caralyn, it definitely raises the possibility that young Ben will know our time travelers.

VictorC said...

I did some quick searching for the FTS: http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/5ec86b30a63635da25c16b67748e0694

And something to compare it to:
http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/lifesize-egyptian-anubis-sculpture-1.jpg

I don't know much about Egyptian history or any of that, but we could use some help from someone who does.
Some people think the statute depicts a female, but I'm not so sure about that.

Becca said...

Brian, dude...

Obviously some bone heads out there don't know that the term instant means immediate! Of course "instant reactions" are just what they mean, instant! Seriously. I can't believe people harang you about changing gears once you do the analysis. Where's their blog... oh, that's right, they don't have one!!!!
I love you, man. Keep on keepin'on.

timcourtois said...

Yeah, I noticed that some jerk ruined the whole Sawyer = LaFleur surprise. Boo! You're a jerk, whoever you are! JERK!

Brian, I was thinking the same thing: I never really liked Rose & Bernard, but come on, where the heck ARE they? And the rest of the gang aren't even concerned?

Finally... a genius friend of mine pointed out: I bet little boy Ben and his father are about to arrive on the island with the submarine that's coming back in "two weeks"...? Whenever he does arrive, I'm looking forward to seeing the look on Sawyer's face when he realizes this nerdy little kid is actually going to turn out to be the biggest a-hole he's ever met.

thegirlfromtheghetto said...

I'm totally convinced you get shows ahead of time from LOST publicists. I want in ... It just took me a good 80 minutes to write my post, and I can not believe how much you wrote about this show so quickly. Share the secrets my blog friend!

timcourtois said...

Ooh ooh!!! New theory!: So... Horace & Amy had a SON... and we don't know who he is. We DO know however, that before the Purge, Goodspeed was working on building a cabin for himself and "the missus". But then they he was killed in the Purge. And the cabin he built? It became the dwelling of you know who.

So... My money is on Horace & Amy's son being named... JACOB!!!

Woohoo!!!

Ethan said...

I was gonna predict that the kid = Ethan. We never really did nail down his age. However, I dunno if he was ex-Dharma. (Not a true spoiler as I am totally guessing.)

Steve said...

First, on turning off the Anon posts. Thank you! We went over 4 years without someone abusing it with spoilers, I agree with your decision.

It's strange to get back to characters. First, Sawyer was awesome... but I would take Juliet any day of the week over Kate. I know you disagree... but James would be a fool to pass on what he has with Juliet. But obviously they're building to the love rhombus here.

Second, we don't know how much the others know about the crash... if Sawyer or the others ever told the truth about themselves and how they got to the island. If they were able to keep this secret, imagine the surpise of Ben when LeFleur drops on the island. Wow.. can't kill him. To kill him would mess with time in a bad bad way. To kill any of them...

Now look at who was on the list in season 2... Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sawyer? We're just missing Sayid as being on that list. Juliet was recruited by Alpert..... he must have known that she had to come to the island. I didn't mention sun, assuming she's in the future.

That 'cross' is an "ankh", the egyptian symbol for Eternal Life.

Four Toes... it does look egyption, I would guess Anubis, but I didn't see any ears that I recall. Thank God that, as Brian put it, that this puts an end to the crazy Sawyer statue theories.

I've said for a while that Ben had fallen out with the island, and this was the impact of babies not being born there. There is something he did. Again, I'm not convinced that Widmore is good either, but apprently kids were born in the island if we are to believe him that he was leader(and I'm not sold on his honesty either). The more ben involved science instead of faith in the island, the more the island punished with the birth curse.

I will throw this out, just because I'm tired and babeling endlessly: I'm not sure that Ben could see Jacob. Remember how shocked he was that Locke actually heard him? I believe he's been lying all this time to the people that Jacob has been speaking to him. If he ever did see him, which he may have, he no longer could... We know Ben is a pathological lyer.

Ethan said...

Hmmm... I'm leaning toward Tim's theory tho. "The thing that [doesn't allow children to be born on the Island] hasn't happened yet." Maybe Jacob was the last. (Still guessing.)

Steve said...

I would also hate to mention this.. but The actor who plays Jin mentioned something in an interview that may indicate that Brian is right about Sun and the timeline.

However, logic wise, I don't buy it. I'm sticking by my guns on this.

My theory is this: They were NOT supposed to leave the island... they were gone for 3 years. The plane flew over just as Locke turned the FDW. Because they were SUPPOSED to be on the island, they were 'flashed' back to the 70's.. the exception was they were gone for 3 years, so they were zapped 3 years forward from those they had been on the island the entire time. Therefore, by my theory, Sun is in the past.

Back to Ben and the island not liking him. Many examples, gave him cancer was one... but my favorite was Christian Sheppard saying "since when did listening to him get us anywhere" or some such. Defiately not well thought of with Jacob.

Steve said...

But come to think of it, maybe Sun WAS supposed to leave the island to give birth to the child? That's the only way I could justify her in the present.

Locke is in the present time because he was supposed to leave the island and came back. He as also previously skipping. Which is why he didn't skip on the return.

Now, if we get back to Locke and his resurrection(I'll mention anubis and the Ankh here too), was he embalmed? If properly prepared, to suggest that the island resurrected him is more than a miracle. Does he even have blood? He's almost a demi-god of sorts. But that's not this episode.

Matthew said...

We don't know much about Desmond's age, come to think about it. He's also been painfully absent since he defied Hawking. What about Desmond being the Boy?
Or, if you want another person able to effect things, what about Faraday? He seems pretty young. Maybe he "grew up" with Charlotte, thus the obsession with her. I don't know, just throwing it out there. Thanks for the "purge" of the anonymous, Brian!

Matthew said...

Come to think about it, Faraday's Mom is supposed to be Hawking, so that probably doesn't work..

Theyab said...

How old did Jack say the Adam and Eve skeletons were? Could they be Bernard and Rose? Or is sometime in the 70s or maybe 80s too late for it to be them?

pntsoffdanceoff said...

I think the thing that keeps women from giving birth on the island is the Purge. Maybe thats why they have all those vaccines and injections to possibly nullify the effects of the left over gas. Maybe the gas never quite dissipated cause things can't leave the island....Does that make sense? This may also be the cause of his obsession to fix the fertility issues. I'm just throwing this out there.

Also Steve, I totally agree that Juliet is WAY better than Kate. Kate's sole purpose is to create tension and a love interest for Jack and Sawyer. Oh except that the writers conveniently gave her awesome tracking skills, which I think is lame but you have to do something to keep her useful.

Last thing...Sawyer is the F-ing man..Period.

LC said...

Is anyone else getting a Stargate feeling from Lost lately? The ankh and the statue (and something I read about from a Darlton interview, but I don't want to mention it here, since it might be a bit of a spoiler) are making me think there's a big ancient Egypt connection.

Also, I think the reason for there not being an episode next week is Dancing With the Stars.

goklemez said...

taueret, protectors of the pregnant women in egypt mythology.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2366/1236237056832.jpg

jack said...

the fact the name of the baby was not revealed clearly is evidence that he will be a character of significance. The idea he is Jacob is interesting given that Godspeed did build the cabin presumably for them to reside in before the purge. Jacob's spirit continuing to occupy the cabin would make for terrific story continuity.

Bob said...

I like the idea of the baby being Jacob, but how does that fit in with Locke talking to Richard about Jacob if he wasn't born yet in the 50s?

wgh said...

Interesting that Faraday keeps insisting that "whatever happened, happened" yet acts as if he doesn't really believe it... like trying to convince himself not to talk to little Charlotte, for instance.

Randy said...

"Archaeologists have uncovered a giant statue of an ancient Egyptian queen..."

http://www.topnews.in/archaeologists-uncover-giant-statue-ancient-egyptian-queen-229165

The "bowl" upon the head is almost identical.

Randy said...

Did anyone catch what the "hostiles" were saying to Amy when Sawyer walked upon on them. Didn't they break the truce by killing Paul?

Andre said...

I wondered that too, but maybe the truce as broken by Amy and Paul... tresspassing on the Others' lnd or something.

Rebecca said...

I think I'm more bothered that no one is wondering about or looking for Rose, Bernard & Vincent than the fact we haven't seen them. I'm unsure about this episode - the shot of the statue was exciting though a view from the front would have been cool too, and of course we need more explanation. But it was cool. I liked Sawyer standing up as a leader and taking charge, with Jack there before he didn't have much of a chance to lead everyone. I like him as a "good guy" though why didn't he tell Juliet that Jin found Jack, Kate & Hurley???

I don't like Kate - she screwed Jack 24 hours ago and now giving Sawyer googly eyes, get over it. I thought the "reunion" was a let down but I think that's because it was so short. Next epi should be better.

Daniel said...

Bernard and Rose ARE the Adam & Eve skeletons. Remember that they had a black stone and a white stone.

D-Bone said...

THANK YOU for turning off anon posting. That has been bothering me since Season 2.

I am wondering why we didn't see Faraday in any of the 3 years later scenes. What happened to him?

Dave Harty said...

I am beginning to think about "the list" and "the rules" than Ben and Widmore live by.

My guess is that "the rules" apply to killing people who have a future in the past. So Widmore can't kill Ben, and Ben can't kill Widmore because they both have to return to the island in the future (or in the past).

Maybe that is where "the list" came from, it was designed to protect those who had to stay alive long enough to leave the islaned and then return in the past.

Andre said...

but if that's the rule, ben wouldn't have been able to shoot Locke and leave him for dead... or he would have known Locke would come back. in which case, why wouldn't Alex come back too?

VictorC said...

goklemez, I think you're dead on. People on other sites are saying the FTS is Anubis and other Egyptian gods, but I think you hit the nail on the head.

I was really thinking the FTS was of Alpert, but if that's taueret then it would mean the FTS is of a female...

D-Bone, they showed him going after Charlotte in one scene.

Also, I was wondering what's up with the well not being deep at all. I'm assuming they were just getting started on it.

Meh said...

Re: Rose and Bernard
"Anonymous said... I think rose and bernard are adam and eve :) that would be a beautiful end to their story. Maybe they went to the cave to hide or maybe they get placed there out of respect. -kas 2:57 AM "

That was my suggestion and last night I was thinking about how that could be. We know that when Charlotte died her body stayed behind. Sad thought for R&B, but that is possible if on one of the skips they both died... a stretch though for both to pass at the same time unless murdered (?), but the why would they end up in the cave. I think it is still possibly them, but can't figure out a good scenario.

Re: birth
has "the incident" happened yet? i assume we are post-candle stage, but i wasn't sure and they haven't brought it up yet.

wgh said...

Nice work goklemez!!!!

Commish said...

If Desmond is the baby and the birth problem existed even back then, it might explain why he is considered "special". Could the fact that Amy had the ankh protect her offspring from the curse? Maybe the curse was placed on the island when the statue was destroyed.

Ryan Hess said...

goklemez makes a pretty solid case for the statue being an Egyptian god that protected pregnant women. If he is right (and the pictures are pretty convincing) then that would indicate that the island ancients probably had the same troubles with having children as the present island inhabitants. Why else would they build such a big statue of a god that protects pregnant women?

As I was pondering this it occurred to me that the only child births that have occurred on the island that we know of are Amy's baby and Aaron. Therefore, we can assume that both of these babies are special.

I think there is a relationship between eternal life on the island and having been born there. We don't know where Alpert came from but I'm willing to guess that he was born on the island. Perhaps he is the last remaining of the island ancients. Maybe due to their inability to reproduce and their members getting killed off by invaders this left Alpert all alone. Or perhaps there are others and he is merely their spokesman.

Anyway, I could see this dilemma becoming sort of an obsession for Alpert. He desperately wants to continue on his group of "special people". That is why he sought the services of Juliet. We could assume that at that point he was desperate.

Why are other people like Locke and Desmond also special? I think that somehow it is possible for implants to be "converted". There have been many religious overtones and I think this "conversion" could be similar to how people can be converted to Judaism. They aren't Children of Israel by birth but can still participate and enjoy the same benefits.

We can see, therefore, that there are very select few that are "special". Only those that beat the odds and was successfully born on the island or those that were somehow "converted" I think it is very clear that Ben is not "special". I think he realized this the second he was shown the x-rays that revealed his tumor. "Special" people do not die from natural causes (and some, like Locke, don't even die when they are shot in the chest). Maybe Alpert let Ben become the leader because he was desperate.

Wow, that was long. I applaud you if you made it this far.

D-Bone said...

Hey Victor,

Yeah, I saw Faraday going after her but that was right when they first got there right? I am curious about what happened to him for the "3 years later" scenes.

Whats the timeline for when the Orchid was built and when we saw Faraday from the season opener? Could that scene have taken place during these 3 years or are we still going to see some time jumping?

Brian Leonard said...

Rebecca asked:

why didn't he tell Juliet that Jin found Jack, Kate & Hurley???

Because he doesn't want Juliet to know that Kate is back. Remember, he just told Horace that he'd gotten over Kate...but of course he hasn't.

Paul said...

wasn't lafleur on one of the dead guy's jump suits in a previous episode? trying to find what episode that was if anybody remembers...

cortneycort said...

my biggest question from the episode: lets say kate took place of claire on the plane with the whole pregnancy idea. will she have the baby on the island? CAN she even have the baby on the island?

Andre said...

In regards to Rose and Bernard as A&E.

It seems like she must still be alive because the island cured her cancer and this only seems to happen to people when the island needs them later. Has she done anything yet that warrants the island having saved her? It doesn't seem like it, but maybe.

D-Bone said...

For pregnancy related questions, Lostpedia may help us sort this out.

I think the fact that women have babies "on the mainland" during Dharma Days is something not related to the pregnancy issues Juliet was brought to work on. How far along was Amy? It seemed to be close to the end of her pregnancy if she was about to get on the sub to go have the baby. According to Juliet's research, she would have not made it that far.

Lostpedia references:

* In "D.O.C.", Juliet states that if the mother conceived off-Island, they will most likely survive the pregnancy. However, if the baby was conceived on the Island, the mother will likely die before their third trimester, as a result of the mysterious issues surrounding the location.

* According to Juliet, "The problem occurs somewhere during the second trimester, when the mother's immune system is triggered. The white blood cell count plummets. It's like the … immune system turns on the fetus." ("The Other Woman")

* According to Juliet, "In about three weeks [approximately the end of Sun's first trimester], you'll be in an almost constant state of nausea. A week after that, you will experience shortness of breath that won't go away. A week after that, you will lose consciousness and slip into a coma. And then, you will die. And when your heart stops beating … so will the baby's. If you go [back to Locke's camp] … you will die. And your baby will never be born." ("Ji Yeon")

* According to this report, pregnant women can expect to die on the Island somewhere after their 100th day of pregnancy. ("Ji Yeon")

Source: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pregnancy

This also might explain why Kate may be OK if she is indeed pregnant. The baby was not conceived on the island.

Lizzy said...

Maybe the pregnancy issue was never a problem with Dharma becuase they were regular people. There is definitly something strage about the "Island Originals" or "hostils"-like the fact the Alpert dosen't age and that the "sonic fence" dosen't stop them. Whatever supernatural, undeadness is going on with them might be the reason that they can't survive pregnancy (assuming that every pregnant women was either an original or impregnated by one).
Also, I like the baby being Jacob theory but I think there are some holes...why would Jacob speak with Alpert if that is who killed his parents? I tend to think that Jacob was already around at this time.

kathy said...

isn't the baby goodspeed (juliet's lover)? because horace's last name is goodspeed, right?

EddieBrick said...

new to the blog, but just a random thought, could Alpert be originally from the future, skipped back in time akin the skipping survivors, and cant age again until he reaches his own time?

i feel like this has been touched on in the blog before so someone please either prove me wrong or support me =)

Jeff said...

A few thoughts: LaFleur could be a pun Sawyer made to the Orchid seeing how that is what got them to DHARMA (hidden truth).

I found it interesting Daniel wasn't visibile in the +3 years time frame with DHARMA. It could be there wasn't a fluid entry for his character as Miles/Jin/Sawyer worked security; Juliet delivered the baby and lives with Sawyer. Thus it might have been a little forced to have Farriday show up just to wave and say hello. I think we'll get a more elaborate explanation as to what he’s been up to, specifically interacting with young Charlotte (or lack thereof) and infiltrating the construction of the Orchid.

Another oddity was the structure of DHARMA. It looked like nothing more than a hippy colony. It didn’t seem as though scientists were running around with beakers & bunson burners and the suits weren’t referencing specific stations; rather roles. Is this the early formulation of DHARMA or a split function, specifically are they in the “blue collar” living quarters where you have mechanics, security, etc. or a separate experiment themselves?

It would seem Charles Widmore entering the camp would have made more sense...given he is the supposed leader during this time frame. This leaves me to believe he either 1) was lying about his stature 2) can't enter the camp since the sonar fence would be disruptive to a "mortal" - which means Richard is truly unique compared to all other 'hostiles' – but Richard mentioned the fence is of little effectiveness agaist “us” – than what is the fence protecting them from? 3) The hostile camp is divided. Richard represents a faction and Widmore split with Hawking & others. It did seem quite acrimonious when Locke & company arrived at the their camp in the 50’s between Widmore & Richard.

jack said...

hi Jeff...what i interpreted Richard's comment about the fence to mean is that it is designed to keep the Smoke monster out but somehow has no affect on him or his people.

jack said...

hey WHG....Daniel was whispering to himself that "...I'm not gonna tell her" (sic) implying that he was trying to stop himself from doing exactly what Charlotte said he told her when she was a little girl.

Jagged Diary said...

Kathy-
Juliette's loveer was named Goodwin Stanhope. The age doens't match up either.

wgh said...

jack said...

hey WHG....Daniel was whispering to himself that "...I'm not gonna tell her" (sic) implying that he was trying to stop himself from doing exactly what Charlotte said he told her when she was a little girl.

Right, which wouldn't make sense if he really believed "whatever happened, happened." How can he stop what already happened?

wgh said...

Didn't Amy retrieve the ankh after asking "for a moment" with her dead husband? I didn't connect the two at the time but now I'm wondering if she specifically didn't want Horace seeing her get the ankh.

jon. said...

Ok, signed up just to continue commenting here :-)

Great episode! Beautiful story with Sawyer and Juliet. The "3 years later" really felt like it through that developing love story. Sawyers conversation with Godspeed at the end was warm but also tragic, since well all know that Kate is coming back.

So Alpert knew Sawyer. I wonder if this means that he knew Juliet too? Or did 3 years pass without him talking to them again?

Anyway, it seems very likely that Ben will arrive at the island and actually meet the gang. That's why they're picked out later on. And this could also explain why Kate agreed to go back - maybe Ben showed her some sort of documentation of Juliet and Sawyer on the island in the 70s. Or even of herself on the island in the 70s!

My hunch is that the baby is neither Jacob nor Desmond. But I've no clue who it could be.

jack said...

WGH....the way i interpreted Daniel talking to himself and whispering that "..I'm not gonna tell her.." was that he was struggling with the idea that he knows "whatever happened, happened". But love apparently is clouding his view. Remember...he told her before she died that he'll save her? I think the writters are trying to convey conflict for Daniel with respect to his science knowledge of time travel and his love for Charlotte. You agree??

lost and back again said...

Lizzy, Jeff, Jack,

Maybe the sonic fence has no effect on the Hostiles (Richard Alpert’s group) because they can bypass it – by going UNDER it.

Perhaps the Hostiles have an elaborate underground tunnel system (shout out to Watership Down, Alice In Wonderland: down the rabbit hole).

The entrance/exit within the Dharma compound is in a house that Ben will later live in with Alex -- a house with a hidden room with hieroglyphics and passports.

jmac said...

maybe the statue was built for "jughead"? they did reference both ( nuke and statue )in this episode. It was made of concrete... Might explode and all that is left is the foot.

cortneycort said...

In my wildest fantasy Kate and jack would name their baby Jacob. I know there isn't the slightest chance it'll probably happen, but I get excited thinking about it!

Dan Shargel said...

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet but Lostpedia points out on Charlotte's character profile that Ben has said she was born in 1979 so odd that she would show up as a little girl in 1974. But I guess someone could have lied about that for some reason. Also, interesting that her full name is similar to CS Lewis' (Charlotte Staples Lewis). Will be really interesting to see who Horace's baby turns out to be. One of my favorite episodes of the season so far.

pntsoffdanceoff said...

They showed Charlotte's mom and her walking. I'm going out on a limb and saying that it was her mom. jughead and the statue are not related. And remember how Kate, locke and company got passed the sonic fence....wait for it....they used a tree to climb over it. Simple answer huh.....

Prachi said...

Amy said that the women usually go to the mainland to have the baby - meaning that even pre-Ben, pre-Purge, women did not (could not?) have babies on the island. So whoever the baby is could potentially be "special".

Although that's still inconsistent with the later events when pregnant women never make it to the third trimester.

Isabella said...

Hey just something I noticed that would add to the "Egypt being important" theory.
In "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham", when Locke goes to visit Hurley, Hurley is painting a picture of the Sphinx. Maybe it is random, but the last time we saw Hurley painting a picture it was an Igloo and that could have related to the FDW being, well, frozen.

Great blog Brian by the way!

Becky said...

My comments are if the past can't be changed to affect the future then....

1) What happened to Amy in the past before Sawyer saved her? Was she captured by the Others and then what happened to her? Did she become an other?

2) What happened to the two others men in the past if Sawyer and Juliet weren't there to kill them while they were killing Paul and capturing Amy?

Meh said...

what it means is that Sawyer and Juliet always go back in time and shoot the men and save Amy... there is no other possibility. Whatever is happening now is how it is supposed to happen or how it happens as viewed later in history. As we are watching it is the present timeline of our survivors, even if their bodies move into the past. Their timeline stays "current" for them and us. We know some of what the future history of the Island will be, but not yet the full history of people like Sawyer, Jack, Kate, etc. We still have their "future" to see because they haven't experienced it yet.

lost and back again said...

Do you think it sounded like little Charlotte and her mother were speaking in Korean?

I went back and watched the scene again - and I don't think they're speaking English.

jon. said...

Becky:

But there is no past 1974 where Amy does not get saved by Sawyer. Sawyer ALWAYS showed up and saved Amy in 1974.

You might be mixing up two interpretations of "whatever happened, happened".

interpretation 1: those jumping back in time can't make any impact on what happens (i.e. the same things would have happened if they hadn't showed up)

interpretation 2: those jumping back in time can't change the specific impact that they're bound to make.

The Lost universe is based on 2, not 1.

Gibbo said...

I was reading this blog a couple of weeks ago and someone recomended watching the film 'Twelve Monkeys' as the time travel concept is very similar.

I took the advice as I saw it advertised for just £2.99 (about $1.80) on HD DVD. I bought it and thought it was one of the best films I've ever seen.

Not only that, but it does make the whole time travel thing very clear. Whatever happended happened and you cannot change it, no matter how hard you try.

All the people that have posted above and do not quite understand how sawyer changed anything etc etc. watch this film and all will become clear.

VictorC said...

Yeah Gibbo that was me, truly amazing movie, I can see why it was so inspiring to the producers.
I'm about to watch it again, with the director's commentary, lol.

For everyone that wants to fully understand LOST time travel, go rent 12 Monkeys.

Karl said...

Has no one mentioned that Richard Alpert looks vaguely Egyptian? That and the fact that Sawyer even mentioned something about his mascara.
The Egyptian statue, Alpert, not aging till you hit your original point in time and the old who built the pyramids debate.
BTW, awesome blog! Does a great job of keeping my attention to the shows details!!

VictorC said...

More on the FTS (despite such an awesome episode, I'm still fascinated by it, lol):

- It can't be a female, because the kilt isn't long enough. It's always the males that have it that length with females' length down to their ankles.

- It can't be purely Egyptian, because if you remember, the statue is wearing sandals, which was more of a Greco-Roman feature. So perhaps it's their own interpretation of Egyptian religion/style.

Sadly, I don't think we're going to get another look at it until the last season, when they reveal who it is.

Karl said...

Sandals were fairly Mediterranean and I've seen Egyptian statues with Sandals; but the reference may even predate the Egyptian culture; ala Stargate theory of a master culture.

Kilt is male, VictorC is spot on.

Is the statue merely Anubis or another God or is it a person? Could the statue have a larger significance or is it being used as a means to move the story point of a larger scope in the history of the island and the Others?

VictorC said...

I know it's not Anubis or even Taueret (who's the closest Egyptian god being depicted on the statue). I'm pretty sure the face will be one of the characters we know.
My hunch being on Alpert or Faraday, but who knows.

Hobbes said...

I actually really liked this episode, a lot. I don't know why 100% but it was just the whole feel of it. Even with the anon dudes Lafleur spoiler (it was a spoiler because in the episodes promo we couldn't see Sawyer's name tag) it was still great. Maybe it was one of those episodes that just had a lot of those puzzle peices fall into play while at the same time raising in classic Lost fashion more and more questions.

- Sawyer's comment to Juliet "well maybe whatever caused that hasn't happened yet". -- awesome! this leads us to think that it was a specific event that caused the whole mother/baby issues, so what event hmmm? Is this related to the whole FTS (Taueret : nice find BTW Goklemez, see more below) or was it Amy's Ankh that protected her - it certainly didn't protect her husband.

http://i.friendfeed.com/d1baf71a9600cb931c1cf96f9794a2d752124372


- The whole Dharma\Hostiles treaty. Why do bodies have to be returned etc? And why especially since the it was the others who killed a Dharmite first?

- Sawyer asking the "guy with eye-liner" (Richard Alpert) about Jughead. Glad Jughead wasn't forgotten about. The eyeliner comment also got me to thinking how in some movies and shows with Egyptian themes you see such strong eye shawdow usually on the characters in them, so is Richard supposedly, originally an Egyptian? Is he extremely that old?

- If all it takes to bypass the sonic fence is a good pair of earplugs, hmmm not too secure is it?

- Faraday seeing Charlotte and his whole not gonna tell her quagmire. I suspect something is still going to happen that will motivate him to repeat this mistake.

- Does lil' Ben show up next week. Does the comment about Juliet "looking just like her" come more into play. Because perhaps if it isn't a reference to Ben's mother than perhaps it was a refernece to Juliet (in Dharma times).

- I also like the fact that now three years has past for the 06 and for the time jumping survivors. And not a hey we saw you four days ago sort of thing.

- Desmond is a good guess for the baby boy, but I'm only about 10% on that one.


More about Taueret:

In childbirth, Taueret suckled and protected the newborn. In the underworld, she carried the deceased toward a new destiny. In art, Taueret appeared as a hippopotamus standing on her hind legs with pendant breasts, sometimes with the back of a crocodile and the feet of a lion. In her role as an avenging deity, Taueret had the head of a lion and the body of a hippopotamus, brandishing a dagger, and sometimes carrying a crocodile on her shoulders.

_____

The goddess wears a striped tripartite wig, with the front two lappets resting above her pendulous breasts. The mouth of her long snout is partially open revealing sharp teeth. Her arms are held either side of her distended belly. Down her back runs a broad tail, incised with a series of 'v'-shaped lines.
Taueret, the great female one, first appeared in Old Kingdom times. Her main attributes are the ‘sa’ symbol for protection, and the ‘ankh’, symbol of life. She was a benevolent deity connected to the travails of pregnancy and birth, the protectress of women in childbirth. Depicted with the head of a hippopotamus, the tail of a crocodile, pendulous breasts and the swollen belly of a pregnant woman she usually wears a long wig and opens her mouth to bear her fearsome teeth. Her ferocious appearance was thought to deter evil forces during childbirth when women would wear amulets for their protective powers.


Can't wait for your analysis B. And thanks for blocking the whole anon's.

CJ said...

I am still troubled by the apparent discrepancies between what we saw Locke do with the FDW (with Christian watching over, not helping) and what we saw at the beginning of this episode, in the "previously on Lost" sequence. Maybe I wasn't watching carefully enough or remembering properly, but the angle and Locke's movements seemed quite different, plus the fact that in the second iteration there was no hint of Christian's presence.

Of course, it is also possible that the different angle accounts for the fact that we don't see him. But it also appeared to me that Locke did the moving of the FDW with a little less effort and/or pain that we originally saw.

It's a small detail that keeps nagging at me, and my first thought was of another prominent time-travel theory, of parallel universes. I know that the other evidence has pointed pretty clearly to the 12 Monkeys school of closed-loop time travel, but it certainly not be the first time that the rules of the game have been changed in the middle.

singhy said...

Assuming that Miles is the baby from the season opener (seeing as his nose bleeds indicate that he's been on the island quite a bit before, but he doesn't remember), I find it quite amusing that Miles' parents are on the island with him! Will he not recognise them? In fact, from Faraday's presence in the opener, it seems that Miles will be born on the island whilst he is working security!

That might be an indicative of Brian's theory that, ala Back to the Future, coming in to contact with oneself in the past is a 'very bad thing'!?

singhy said...

Re: Dan Shargel

Good spot, although Ben also said that Charlotte was born in England, and we know that is wrong, so it doesn't seem too far-fetched that he also announced the wrong birth-year (whether innocently or not)?

VictorC said...

CJ, it's not a discrepancy at all. All they did was summarize it, so they showed the scene with most of the detail out.
They did the same thing at the end of the episode 316, where the beginning we saw was actually the end of the episode, only in the end it was a bit different, because they summarized things, cut a few clips out.

singhy, if you watch 12 Monkeys you'll see what happens when a person sees himself in the past. I don't want to spoil anything from the movie, but suffice it to say it's not what Brian thinks would happen.

jon. said...

VictorC: 12 Monkeys is a great film on its own merits but we can't be certain that the Lost universe will handle time and time travel in exactly the same way as in 12 M. There's of course no settled answer to what happens when a person sees himself in the past that the Lost writers must adhere to. They're free to make up a new theory. But for the story to make sense they must of course accommodate the "whatever happens, happens" idea that they've already given us.

And if I remember 12 M correctly then its ending is wide open to competing interpretations of what exactly happens when you meet your younger self, if the past can be changed and so on. So even if Lost were to copy exactly from it then we'd still not know for sure what that means.


A completely different thing: if Alpert has been on the island long enough to see the statue intact then we know that it isn't a statue of Locke or Sawyer. Otherwise Alpert would have recognized their faces when first meeting them in the 50s/70s. So either Alpert has never seen the statue or it is not a statue of Locke or Sawyer.

VictorC said...

jon, just watching the movie you can see LOST uses the exact same time travel laws. Plus the producers have already stated that.

I don't know how you remember the movie, but the ending was pretty clear to me. And the movie clearly showed that, just like in LOST, whatever happened happened and nothing can be changed. You might need to watch it again...

Good point about Alpert and the FTS though.

omanni said...

The four toe statue must be John:
http://www.officiallost.com/index.php?topic=3466.0

omanni said...

Or maybe the statue is Sekhmet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekhmet
http://www.nilecommerce.net/images/statues/colored/sekhmet-cremeL.jpg
http://www.rainbowcrystal.com/egypt/E-56sekhmet.jpg

J-Bos! said...

Good work on getting rid of the Anon, but I lost my Dharma Mayonnaise tag lol.

I’m way late on commenting but just a couple of comments on the comments...
Re: Charlotte and her mother speaking in a different language. I watched the show again on the weekend and they’re definitely speaking English (though I don’t recall exactly what she said).

Re: Rebecca being disturbed that no one is looking for Rose, Bernard, and Vincent. Isn’t that exactly what Jin was doing when he said he didn’t find anyone at Grid 133? He’s clearly searching the island methodically (though Locke is likely the central target, not Rose and Co)

Re: And I second Jack’s assertion that Faraday’s own struggle with whether or not to tell Charlotte anything even when he knows “whatever happens happens” (should we have a new anagram for that – WHH? lol). It’s just his emotions clouding logic and him hoping that he could do something/anything to save her. Simply another faith vs science reference for Lost.

Fantastic episode overall. Really enjoyed it.

Luke said...

So I get to work on Monday expecting to see the Analysis so I can read it on the porcelain throne, and nothing! C'mon, Brian just because we don't get a new Lost this week doesn't mean you get a week off!!

J/K, of course, thanks for all you do. My wife thinks I'm amazingly smart because I'm putting things together thanks to your analysis!

Steve said...

12 Monkees was quite clear at the end. The point was 'whatever happned, happened' and had nothing to do with meeting your younger self. That was part of the story, not the time travel logic.

From the mouth of Damon Linleof:
What would happen if you were in the past and tried to change the present as you knew it, would you A)Fail, or B)Succeed, or C)Cause the thing you were trying to prevent. And that's really interesting to us, because there's no (do-over's).

- Damon Lindelof

I think it's quite obvious that option C is Lost AND 12 Monkeys.

I can't find the Damon quote on 12 Monkeys... it was from a podcast last season. They were asked if the flash forwards meant that those that got off the island would return to the past to fix things. Damon, much more articulate than I... said something like this:

We've not going to have someone travel from the future to warn their past self, hense preventing the event that caused you to go back in the past to start with! Think of Hero in Heroes with "save the cheerleader", by saving her, there no reason for Hero to travel back with this warning.

I also want to mention that Damon Lindelof is a BIG fan of "The Watchmen". He's quoted on the back of the recent paperback release. There are some LOST paralells.

IF YOU DO NOT WANT THE WATCHMEN SPOILED, STOP READING:

A hero with a lot of money decided to save the world from war and destruction, etc. He gathers the best scientics, artists, etc together.. they "disappear".. and are assembled on an island to do his research. The goal of this project was to clone some sort of psionic being.. creating a psionic monster, then teleport this Monster to the heart of New York City, where the teleportation would cause the mind of the monster to lose control, killing everyone for miles. Because of his appearance, the world would think that this creature was from space, the world would stop fighting and unite the world togther. This man's hidden base was in antartica.

From a lost standpoint, the Lost Experience from season 3, thought not cannon, stated that the numbers were a value of the equation that would determine the time of the end of the world. Scientics were pulled to the Dharma initiative in order to try to change these values for the betterment of mankind. War, disease, hunger, etc.

One may call Jacob a Psionic being.. it was suggested in a podcast when asked whether Jacob was a prisoner, alien, or some such that was confined to the island to do the bidding of those that control him. His answer was "i can't answer any part of that question".

Then you have the antarctic station with the Brazillians working for Penny.

So here is the deal... I think that being the Sci-Fi and comic book geeks, that it's natural to pull ideas from many stories, watchmen(that island thing is NOT the main plot, but a passing detail at the end), or twelve monkeys. Damon has joked that he has a journal of every time travel story ever made and has stated since season 2 "who's to say that we don't already have elements of time travel in the story" and that we just don't realize it yet.

At least he doesn't steal stories, but incorperates ideas in different ways. Way to go guys!

jack said...

One other thing...didn't want this period to pass without commenting on Josh Halloway and his acting chops. To me, not only was this guy very well cast to play Sawyer on LOST, but he appears to have leading man qualities. Next to Terry O'Quinn and Mike Emerson, he's one of the stronger actors on the cast IMO.

Brian said...

Sorry guys - it's been a busy few days. The Analysis Post is about 75% done, and should be up tomorrow night. Look at it this way, it will give you something to read on Wednesday to account for the lack of Lost!

This is why deadlines are a good thing. In my mind, I had no rush this week :)

jon. said...

VictorC: Nah, I can't see that Lost uses "exactly the same time travel laws". The details are still too fuzzy to be sure about it. Fuzzy both in how the time theory in Lost plays out and what it actually is in 12 monkeys. The ending is ambiguous; see the " I'm in insurance" quote on the wikipedia page. Also: Desmond being "special" also opens up the Lost time travel rules to exceptions if the writers want such a thing.

So, there are similarities so far, yes, but I'll wait a bit before I jump on the exactly train.

Anyway, my Lost withdrawal/abstinence syndrome is starting to kick in so I'm really looking forward to Brian's analysis as a stand-in for a new episode. :-)

Steve said...

Jon, I know this is hard to believe coming from me..but you're overanalyzing. The producers have said that they want their time travel to be more alone the lines of 12 monkeys. You're readimg into story details.. the 'i'm in insurance' quite is completely irrevelent to the comment. This is Lost, not 12 monkeys... but the time travel is the realistic 12 monkees style rather than Heroes, Back to the Future, Terminator type of time travel. You're getting lost in the details.

jon. said...

Steve: Well the nerd in me feels strangely compelled to point out that "more alone the lines" != "exactly the same". I'm fine with along the lines. I'm just also open to the possibility that the Lost team will also through us a few Desmond shaped time theoretic curvballs before this whole thing is open.

The "I'm in insurance" is relevant to the question of how malleable time is in the 12 monkeys movie which is relevant to Lost given the presumption that Lost tracks 12M. It is obviously added for ambiguation in 12M. So if the Lost folks say that they're aiming for 12 monkeys time travel, what version of it are they adopting? That was my point.

That said, Lost is so far closer to 12M than most other time travel stories I've seen.

jon. said...

I meant "more along the lines" != "exactly the same".

!= as in "not equal to" :-)

EddieBrick said...

Has anyone seen this video and noticed that at the end (3:30ish) Chang appears to say "Lafleur what are you doing??"... its a bit foggy but its a definite possibility, any thoughts?

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/DHARMA_booth_video

VictorC said...

Eddie, you're right. In that video Chang does say "Lafleur what are you doing?" only thing is that he pronounces it like "la-floour."

This is awesome, I wonder if we'll get to see that situation happening this season.